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#16March 6th, 2011 · 08:07 AM
371 threads / 187 songs
3,380 posts
United Kingdom
Amended agreement 6th March2011 (2)
Added colum for PayPal/Bank Account details;

.........................................................................................................................................................................................................

BandAMP Productions members agreement for songs published on routenote.com
Album – The AMP vol II
Distributor – routenote.com
Administrator – Denis Ahmet

Songs to be included:

BandAMP Member    Song title                bandamp.com link

MountStRobbie            New MSR                             http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/3938.html
PuppetXeno            Wallcrack                             http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/8167.html
Kings                        Folk-Freely                             http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/4943.html
Marino                Siluetas                             http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/8182.html
Chill                  She Will Never Get Away           http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/8192.html
Thebigguyconner              The Man (Final)                          http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/6971.html
Denis                Conquest                             http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/5700.html
AustinChicken            More Fresh Coffee                 http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/6151.html
BasketCase            Old Man(ftPuppetXeno)                http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/3150.html
Blakhatz            We're not Alone                           http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/6427.html
Theotherguy89        Future In Robots                    http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/6621.html
Takaminerbb13            Burn                                     http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/3291.html
SkunkApe                 Home Again                         http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/8210.html
ULI                      Power of mentality                       http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/8196.html
baverbach              Bayou Ladies                              http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/7891.html
FreakCrazy            I Wanna Funk You                      http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/7916.html
TritonKeyboarder        Stump It                                    http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/903.html
FLYER7747      My Last Night At McMahon's_V2         http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/6836.html

Terms and Conditions

Members agree to the publishing of their song that is included in the above song list on routenote.com and confirm that they have read and accepted routenote.com’s terms and conditions. http://routenote.com/termsandconditions

All members confirm they own the copyright to their songs, and or, they have received written permission from a joint copyright holder/s.  Copyrights to all songs will remain the property of the copyright holder/s, all rights reserved by the copyright holder/s.

All profits from the album will be divided equally and paid to each members PayPal account (preferred method) or Members bank account (members to pay any Bank transfer fees if applicable) every six months, from the official launch date, administered by Denis Ahmet (Denis) from routenote.com. The moderators of bandamp.com can change the administrator at any time chosen by a majority vote by members of bandamp.com. Once the album goes live any member’s song will be on the album for life.


Members birth name:.........................................................bandAMP Name.................................................................

Members PayPal Account/Bank Details (optional):.......................................................................................................

.......................................................................................................................................................................................

Members Home Address:  .......................................................................................................................................................................................

..................................................................................................................................Post/Zip Code:............................

Member Email address:.................................................................................


Signed sealed &
Delivered (Member).............................................(print)...................................................Date:...................................

 In the presence
of Witness (signed)...............................................(print)...................................................Date:....................................
#17March 6th, 2011 · 08:12 AM
117 threads / 27 songs
1,057 posts
Germany
Wonderful , denis . Tnx so much for ya effort .
But please , denis its a sunshiny day (here in germany ) . If it is also in London grab ya family for a walk into nature . Get off digiworld for 2 hrs and take a deeeeeeep breath .           
#18March 6th, 2011 · 08:29 AM
371 threads / 187 songs
3,380 posts
United Kingdom
ULI wrote…
Wonderful , denis . Tnx so much for ya effort .
But please , denis it�s a sunshiny day (here in germany ) . If it is also in London grab ya family for a walk into nature . Get off digiworld for 2 hrs and take a deeeeeeep breath .           :D

Sunday is the best Day for me to sort this, it really is no problem
I'm not organised with emails, so yeah your email is in my contacts somewhere :roll, but easier if you pm me:
#19March 6th, 2011 · 09:45 AM
91 threads / 11 songs
884 posts
United States of America
re: Amended agreement 6th March2011
Denis wrote…
Well from kings suggestions I agree that we should all commit to the album for life, also I think that if you are not happy with the way I administrate it, the moderators of bandamp.com have the power to pick another member by means of a members vote.

.........................................................................................................................................................................................................
Denis, I would not agree to taking on that role. You may have to rethink that one. This project is not to be assumed to be an extension of the actions of Bandamp. In pursuit of this project, you and only you are assuming responsibility for the outcome of the project and any implied liability (or any ongoing management needs) that may arise out of this project. Members will need to understand that clearly. They would need to understand, that by agreeing to participate in the project, they are entering into an agreement with you and only you. Furthermore they would have to understand they are surrendering rights to control the outcome of the project once they have entered into the deal.
#20March 6th, 2011 · 10:38 AM
340 threads / 59 songs
4,344 posts
United Kingdom
This sounds good to me, I agree with ULIs sentiment, reasoning and attitude.

In more ways than one, 'throwing' your songs out there in this way actually strengthens the fact that it's yours......if anyone does anything else with any of the material on the album we could officially nail them.
Because the Album and BandAMPs server are the legal proof of when and through whom it came into existence.

So we need to print this out, sign it / get it signed, scan it and send it to you as an image or pdf ? yes ?

You could offer it somewhere online as a pdf ?
Copy and paste into a text file works (no formating) though the lines to be signed are a bit close together!
Copy and Paste sort of works in Word too, it's just a bit wide. 
#21March 6th, 2011 · 11:20 AM
91 threads / 11 songs
884 posts
United States of America
kings wrote…
This sounds good to me, I agree with ULIs sentiment, reasoning and attitude.

ULI's sentiment, reasoning and attitude is fine, but may not represent the sentiment, reasoning and attitude of everyone involved. It is misleading to imply that the site will take over the management of this project if someone takes issue. People need to understand that they are essentially surrendering that level of control, and there is no guarantee, (implied or otherwise) that they may be compensated or protected to their liking. This needs to be clearly stated in the agreement.
#22March 6th, 2011 · 11:41 AM
371 threads / 187 songs
3,380 posts
United Kingdom
kings wrote…
This sounds good to me, I agree with ULIs sentiment, reasoning and attitude.

In more ways than one, 'throwing' your songs out there in this way actually strengthens the fact that it's yours......if anyone does anything else with any of the material on the album we could officially nail them.
Because the Album and BandAMPs server are the legal proof of when and through whom it came into existence.

So we need to print this out, sign it / get it signed, scan it and send it to you as an image or pdf ? yes ?

You could offer it somewhere online as a pdf ?
Copy and paste into a text file works (no formating) though the lines to be signed are a bit close together!
Copy and Paste sort of works in Word too, it's just a bit wide.  :razz:

I would suggest that everone puts a signed copy of the agreement in their bandAMP photo album. I just thought I think there is a tab somewhere on the site where you can upload it too and, or, it can even be put in this thread 
#23March 6th, 2011 · 11:55 AM
371 threads / 187 songs
3,380 posts
United Kingdom
re: re: Amended agreement 6th March2011
battlecat wrote…
Denis wrote…
Well from kings suggestions I agree that we should all commit to the album for life, also I think that if you are not happy with the way I administrate it, the moderators of bandamp.com have the power to pick another member by means of a members vote.

.........................................................................................................................................................................................................
Denis, I would not agree to taking on that role. You may have to rethink that one. This project is not to be assumed to be an extension of the actions of Bandamp. In pursuit of this project, you and only you are assuming responsibility for the outcome of the project and any implied liability (or any ongoing management needs) that may arise out of this project. Members will need to understand that clearly. They would need to understand, that by agreeing to participate in the project, they are entering into an agreement with you and only you. Furthermore they would have to understand they are surrendering rights to control the outcome of the project once they have entered into the deal.

What if I die, what will happen then, what if the majority of members don't like the way it's being administrated.

This is not an agreement by me it's a bandAMP members agreement. I will be setting up a bandAMP account with routenote.com which will be called bandAMP Productions. I am purly administrating it only, not to mention adding one of my songs.

If you do not agree with this I will abort the project immediately.
#24March 6th, 2011 · 12:05 PM
91 threads / 11 songs
884 posts
United States of America
re: re: re: Amended agreement 6th March2011
Denis wrote…
battlecat wrote…
Denis wrote…
Well from kings suggestions I agree that we should all commit to the album for life, also I think that if you are not happy with the way I administrate it, the moderators of bandamp.com have the power to pick another member by means of a members vote.

.........................................................................................................................................................................................................
Denis, I would not agree to taking on that role. You may have to rethink that one. This project is not to be assumed to be an extension of the actions of Bandamp. In pursuit of this project, you and only you are assuming responsibility for the outcome of the project and any implied liability (or any ongoing management needs) that may arise out of this project. Members will need to understand that clearly. They would need to understand, that by agreeing to participate in the project, they are entering into an agreement with you and only you. Furthermore they would have to understand they are surrendering rights to control the outcome of the project once they have entered into the deal.

What if I die, what will happen then, what if the majority of members don't like the way it's being administrated.

This is not an agreement by me it's a bandAMP members agreement. I will be setting up a bandAMP account with routenote.com which will be called bandAMP Productions. I am purly administrating it only, not to mention adding one of songs.

If you do not agree with this I will abort the project immediately.
  Again, the members need to understand that if you die, or if they don't like the way it's being administered, that they are surrendering those elements of control over their contributions. There is no protection afforded by Bandamp, the site. You simply need to remove those statements from the agreement and add a disclaimer that Bandamp.com will not be responsible in any way for any problems that may arise out of any participation in the project. I will not agree to the implication that Bandamp will take over administration of the album. How you choose to respond is your option.
#25March 6th, 2011 · 12:24 PM
371 threads / 187 songs
3,380 posts
United Kingdom
re: re: re: re: Amended agreement 6th March2011
battlecat wrote…
Denis wrote…
battlecat wrote…
Denis wrote…
Well from kings suggestions I agree that we should all commit to the album for life, also I think that if you are not happy with the way I administrate it, the moderators of bandamp.com have the power to pick another member by means of a members vote.

.........................................................................................................................................................................................................
Denis, I would not agree to taking on that role. You may have to rethink that one. This project is not to be assumed to be an extension of the actions of Bandamp. In pursuit of this project, you and only you are assuming responsibility for the outcome of the project and any implied liability (or any ongoing management needs) that may arise out of this project. Members will need to understand that clearly. They would need to understand, that by agreeing to participate in the project, they are entering into an agreement with you and only you. Furthermore they would have to understand they are surrendering rights to control the outcome of the project once they have entered into the deal.

What if I die, what will happen then, what if the majority of members don't like the way it's being

administrated.

This is not an agreement by me it's a bandAMP members agreement. I will be setting up a bandAMP account with routenote.com which will be called bandAMP Productions. I am purly administrating it only, not to mention adding one of songs.

If you do not agree with this I will abort the project immediately.
  Again, the members need to understand that if you die, or if they don't like the way it's being administered, that they are surrendering those elements of control over their contributions. There is no protection afforded by Bandamp, the site. You simply need to remove those statements from the agreement. I will not agree to the implication that Bandamp will take over administration of the album. How you choose to respond is your option.


I'm really sorry to all members, but I am aborting this project immediately, based on Battlecats suggestions.

It's a shame really, but that's life.

There is no hard feelings on my part

If anyone else wants to take on Battlecat's suggestions, then feel free to do so.
#26March 6th, 2011 · 02:39 PM
117 threads / 27 songs
1,057 posts
Germany
Oje oje oje !!  
Coming back home and reading the thread .     Cant understand the discussion .
Its hard for me to follow and understand all this judical stuff and agreement clauses in a foreign language.
So far as I ve understood I have an agreement with "bandamp" by uploading my szuff . Right ?
Now "bandamp" was going to sign a contract with "routenote.com" with accordance of participating members .. Right?
I understand it as an extension of "bandamp" activities.. Not as a private agreement with denis or "routenote.com."
In the contract of  "routenote.com" I couldnt discover any clause which excludes my rights or would surrender the control over MY music .
Why were leading this discussion now and not weeks / months ago , Catty ? Was such a long way to go with the project and now it shall fail ??
Why life is so complicated with simple things???????            
#27March 6th, 2011 · 02:41 PM
117 threads / 55 songs
1,541 posts
Chile
Sorry but I think I'm not getting completely what's the problem here...
So basically, Cat is saying that the responsibility of the album should lay upon Denis' shoulders instead of BandAMP itself? Is that it?

             > Iszil
#28March 6th, 2011 · 02:56 PM
91 threads / 11 songs
884 posts
United States of America
Denis initiated this project and is to be admired for taking on this effort; however, his mistake was presuming that administration (or any other responsibility) should at any point in time become the responsibility of Bandamp.com.  This project involves potential property issues, and there are liabilities that come along with this. Up until this point, Denis has been pursuing this project on his own steam and his own dime to this point and has (perhaps unwittingly) contributed to a perception that this is his project (which implies that he will be the point man) in the event any problems arise. Naturally, this would be a risky endeavor on his part, but that is his option. There are 18 participants involved. They are contributing property with some (at least implied) expectation of remuneration. In fact, they have absolutely no guarantee of protection or remuneration. That may be fine if you adopt the philosophy of ULI or Kings, but again, we cant assume all 18 members share these feelings or will maintain those attitudes later. Hopefully, each participant is making his/her offerings with knowledge that he/she assumes all risks inherent in this arrangement. The site needs to be very clear in its communications with regards to this fact up front.

The controversy that can arise out of this can be potentially complicated and damaging for the community, particularly if there are misconceptions that are (perhaps unintentionally) allowed.

Additionally, Bandamp is still owned by Mudd. All the rest of us are simply volunteers who have the option to disappear at any point in time (as weve seen demonstrated repeatedly in the past) and anyone who may agree to assume responsibility for the outcome of this project now, may not be here tomorrow. Mudd didnt agree to hold responsibility for this project.
Thus, to be fair, honest and forthcoming, each participant needs to understand that Bandamp,com cannot be responsible in any way for any problems that may arise out of this project and the agreement needs to state this clearly. Each participant needs to indicate by signature that they understand their risk and are willing to take it. If they are not willing to take the risk then they need to reconsider their participation in the project.

Again, all I'm asking is for the removal of the statement (that didn't exist until today) saying "The moderators of bandamp.com can change the administrator at any time chosen by a majority vote by members of bandamp.com." (I was not consulted beforehand about the inclusion of this statement) and to include a disclaimer that "Bandamp.com will not be responsible in any way for any problems that may arise out of any participation in the project". Simple, really.
#29March 6th, 2011 · 03:24 PM
117 threads / 27 songs
1,057 posts
Germany
Aaah. I see .

Catty wrote : "all I'm asking is for the removal of the statement (that didn't exist until today) saying "The moderators of bandamp.com can change the administrator at any time chosen by a majority vote by members of bandamp.com." (I was not consulted beforehand about the inclusion of this statement) and to include a disclaimer that "Bandamp.com will not be responsible in any way for any problems that may arise out of any participation in the project". Simple, really.

If its suchlike simple why not removing the passage and leading the project to its end???

Months ago I posted about the question , which kind of distribution we should choose : "what about a commercial CC-licence?"      Is there any possibility to distribute via "bandamp"?
#30March 6th, 2011 · 03:47 PM
13 threads / 12 songs
75 posts
United States of America
Legal Aspects of these projects
Denis and everyone else,
As is often the case with recording projects contracts there are many hidden issues that can (and will) pop up. One of the most important things about doing business in the music world is to understand what can happen and how to make it happen or prevent it from happening. This is why contract law is so important as a musician.

Some of the common pitfalls come from the fact that musicians love what they do (hopefully) and want others to experience their music. Maybe this is ego-centric but there is a very delicate balance between the ego and shedding one's ego to create the music or art. Drummer Tony Williams wrote about this on his liner notes for his album "Ego".

I have been screwed several times because I was willing to take the risk. However in most cases I have been fortunate enough to find honest people.
As far as offering to pay the artists "in purpetuity" this is difficult since both the artists and publisher cannot foresee the state of anything in the future. The way one feels about the project now may be very different than in twenty years. My guess is that in twenty years, if the compilation is not making a ton of money, Denis will be burnt down to a cinder trying to deal with record-keeping and payments every six months even if this is a great project full of life now. Life has a way of doing this.
My suggestion in general is to limit the length of the project somehow to three years with the possibility of renewal in which all licensing is purchased and the only money the artists get is the licensing fees for the compilation (plus royalties from broadcasts, etc. as an author). Although this costs money there is less risk of getting caught in a big mess.
Usuallly, when I have a contract for a contribution to a compilation it is limited temporally, spells out exactly how much is paid per unit, how and when it will be paid, and the contract is several pages long. The length is due to the specifics such as defining language; what artist, producer, unit, and so on means as well as who owns what.
It gets complicated but is a necessary evil since there are so many non-altruistic blood-sucking thieves in the music biz.

I definitely understand Battlecat and see how this cannot be do with an affiliation to BandAMP. That would have to be something that BandAMP can only do. Just as we can't set up our own compilation using any other label - only they can do that.

Gotta run!
Don't give up on this. I am still interested.

Also, anyone who doesn't know entertainment and contract law definitely needs to get a good understanding of it.

Bill Averbach
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