| PC Vs (?) Bands |
Ok... I had to start a thread about this, mainly because it's been in my head for a while now but also because of a recent song uploaded by thebonbonrose called "Triebe und Leidenschaften" where the author justify his efforts by saying that "at least we try our best to make music" wich is completly different from "looping drumpatterns with your downloaded music programm". Ok, I agree with that. But ask any of the members of bandamp that whether use their PC as a tool for making their music or create their entirely music using only the PC. As many of you know, that's my case, and as PuppetXeno wrote in a review for that song, i think that "looping patterns that you make with a downloaded program isn't much of anything, but there's a whole lot more to succesfully create a computer-constructed audio track". So I would like to hear what the people in Bandamp has to say about:
1) the PC being an instrument or not.
2) the reasons you have to use/not use the PC on your music
3) I also would like to hear the opinion of those who use their PC but are not into electronic music (such as Iszil and many more)
I personaly think the PC is an instrument simply because according to the dictionary, a musical instrument is "any of various devices or contrivances that can be used to produce musical tones or sounds" (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/instrument). I would love to be able to use some "real" synths for example, but I don't have money to buy them, so I use software...
1) the PC being an instrument or not.
2) the reasons you have to use/not use the PC on your music
3) I also would like to hear the opinion of those who use their PC but are not into electronic music (such as Iszil and many more)
I personaly think the PC is an instrument simply because according to the dictionary, a musical instrument is "any of various devices or contrivances that can be used to produce musical tones or sounds" (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/instrument). I would love to be able to use some "real" synths for example, but I don't have money to buy them, so I use software...
I think ANY thing you have, if it is a computer, a software program,
an instrument, a fork or even a stick!
If you can make music with it.....then it is music!
It may not be pleasing to ALL ears ..... but there are EARS that
would love to hear it.....It's a way to release communication from
your soul... there are those who would never appreciate it or even
have the intelligence to understand.... I pity those.....
That's my opinion!
-NT4M
an instrument, a fork or even a stick!
If you can make music with it.....then it is music!
It may not be pleasing to ALL ears ..... but there are EARS that
would love to hear it.....It's a way to release communication from
your soul... there are those who would never appreciate it or even
have the intelligence to understand.... I pity those.....
That's my opinion!
-NT4M
I agree that pasting loops together isn't very hard, on one hand... but, it does take artistic design to put even sound loops together well... A sound collage is nothing to put down... I have done a few... and have done techno stuff.... I, like BonBonRose, thought techno and electronic music was a bunch of hokey crap, unitl I did it... man, I learned alot.... it is VERY difficult, and alot of work... and you need to have musical talent in order to do it... if you can't think like a drummer, you CANT make a drum track... if you can't think like a musician, you CANT make music.... that is that...
I have been in "Real Bands" since I was 10, that is over 20 years of mixing sound, tuning, setting up, repairing guitars, drums, mics, etc etc etc... I know more about music and the art of making music than I can remember
but, I never learned to play guitar, or any other instrument... I could set a neck, and replace pickups, set intonation, and tune a guitar, but could not play it.... so, last year, I bought my first guitar... started learning.. then took a 4 month break to try my hand at banjo.. that didn't work well, so I went to Mandolin for two months.. then grabbed my guitar again... so I have a total of 8 months of actual trying to learn to play guitar... I know my stuff isn't great... by any means... but also remember what this site is about... This site is MUSICIANS HELPING MUSICIANS... not SHOWCASE OF THE STARS... not HOMEPLACE OF MUSICAL SNOBS.... please remember what we are here for... we are here to help each other... new musicians, who aren't very good yet need help... when I first started on here, my first song was terrible... I will repost it so you can see the strides I have made PURELY because of the members of this site accepting me, and helping me... my recording quality improvements are due primarily to JBP and BUZZ... THey REALLY helped me alot... My composing has been helped alot by the numerous comments I have gotten from so many people here.... For BonBonRose, You have never posted a comment on any of my songs, so I wonder if you have actually heard any? I have the ones on here, and many of them got deleted accidently, so I have them on my website at http://jkoontz.com .. So, I hope you understand why when you post a comment like "We regret that many of the „bandampers“ dont even play an instrument (a computer is for sure no instrument !!!)" Then many people here are going to take offense...
Also, a comment like : "@everybody: Please put more effort in your projects. Dont place yourself behind a guitar for 10 minutes, record some bulls**t and call it a 'Noodle'" Is very unnecessary... Many of the people here are beginners, and rather than put them down, it is better to let them know how to improve.... If you do not wish to be a mentor, then do not post at all... but the point of this site, and this community is to post, to comment, to help and to learn.... If you utilize it by commenting on every song you can, and try to point out positives in every one( You really can if you try) then they will improve, and you will know that you helped them improve.. which is cool... Also, you will also get more advice on your songs, and you will improve due to the others on the site, and that too is cool..... get it?
Cool
Jimk (mod)
I have been in "Real Bands" since I was 10, that is over 20 years of mixing sound, tuning, setting up, repairing guitars, drums, mics, etc etc etc... I know more about music and the art of making music than I can remember
but, I never learned to play guitar, or any other instrument... I could set a neck, and replace pickups, set intonation, and tune a guitar, but could not play it.... so, last year, I bought my first guitar... started learning.. then took a 4 month break to try my hand at banjo.. that didn't work well, so I went to Mandolin for two months.. then grabbed my guitar again... so I have a total of 8 months of actual trying to learn to play guitar... I know my stuff isn't great... by any means... but also remember what this site is about... This site is MUSICIANS HELPING MUSICIANS... not SHOWCASE OF THE STARS... not HOMEPLACE OF MUSICAL SNOBS.... please remember what we are here for... we are here to help each other... new musicians, who aren't very good yet need help... when I first started on here, my first song was terrible... I will repost it so you can see the strides I have made PURELY because of the members of this site accepting me, and helping me... my recording quality improvements are due primarily to JBP and BUZZ... THey REALLY helped me alot... My composing has been helped alot by the numerous comments I have gotten from so many people here.... For BonBonRose, You have never posted a comment on any of my songs, so I wonder if you have actually heard any? I have the ones on here, and many of them got deleted accidently, so I have them on my website at http://jkoontz.com .. So, I hope you understand why when you post a comment like "We regret that many of the „bandampers“ dont even play an instrument (a computer is for sure no instrument !!!)" Then many people here are going to take offense... Also, a comment like : "@everybody: Please put more effort in your projects. Dont place yourself behind a guitar for 10 minutes, record some bulls**t and call it a 'Noodle'" Is very unnecessary... Many of the people here are beginners, and rather than put them down, it is better to let them know how to improve.... If you do not wish to be a mentor, then do not post at all... but the point of this site, and this community is to post, to comment, to help and to learn.... If you utilize it by commenting on every song you can, and try to point out positives in every one( You really can if you try) then they will improve, and you will know that you helped them improve.. which is cool... Also, you will also get more advice on your songs, and you will improve due to the others on the site, and that too is cool..... get it?
Cool
Jimk (mod)
| i agree |
i like both it isn't one or the other. I like what sounds and songs computer generated music has, some are amazing. I also like and appreciate players of conventional instruments. I say it like this because, I think in the future most music will be written on computers( lots of movies scores are being done this way now).
It is definetly a talent to create good music with a computer. I suck at trying to do drums and other sounds in loops. Learning it slowly.
So to me it's just all music.
It is definetly a talent to create good music with a computer. I suck at trying to do drums and other sounds in loops. Learning it slowly.
So to me it's just all music.
So why don’t call this site COMPUTERamp ?
We never said that it’s not hard to make music with your computer but is it easy to chew 200 chewing gums at once? And yes the computer is a great tool to record or edit your music but there is still a difference between editing music you have played and recorded and create new music you could never play in reality. And there also is a difference between making “computermusic” with your computer (I personally like electronic music) and replace bandmembers you don’t have with some viritual bassists or what ever. Everybody can learn to play every instrument so if u want to be a one man band learn to play all the instruments you need and record them separately but don’t fake and put a massiv drumsolo into your song if you don’t even know what a snaredrum is. It’s just not fair for those who try hard to play a massiv drumsolo on real drums. As you can hear we can’t play perfectly and as u said we are of the beat but it is very hard to play always on beat where there is know problem with let your computer play on time. This site is great, as Jimk said, because it is to help each other and get better and we never wanted to put down beginners because we also are just beginners but there is a difference between just spend 10 min and record something or try to do your best even if you know that it’s still not perfect because this is the only way to get better. It doesn’t make sense to comment on song which is a joke or a noodle or however you’d call it because it’s not the best the artist could do.
Sorry if we offended anyone that’s not our intention it’s just our opinion what we are posting here.
It is sad that so many people don't try to get some friends together and play as a band.
Ofcourse it is easier if you can always do what you want and don't have to listen to other peoples opinion and have to make compromises but the music also benefist from being the music of not only one brain but of 3 or 4.
TBR
We never said that it’s not hard to make music with your computer but is it easy to chew 200 chewing gums at once? And yes the computer is a great tool to record or edit your music but there is still a difference between editing music you have played and recorded and create new music you could never play in reality. And there also is a difference between making “computermusic” with your computer (I personally like electronic music) and replace bandmembers you don’t have with some viritual bassists or what ever. Everybody can learn to play every instrument so if u want to be a one man band learn to play all the instruments you need and record them separately but don’t fake and put a massiv drumsolo into your song if you don’t even know what a snaredrum is. It’s just not fair for those who try hard to play a massiv drumsolo on real drums. As you can hear we can’t play perfectly and as u said we are of the beat but it is very hard to play always on beat where there is know problem with let your computer play on time. This site is great, as Jimk said, because it is to help each other and get better and we never wanted to put down beginners because we also are just beginners but there is a difference between just spend 10 min and record something or try to do your best even if you know that it’s still not perfect because this is the only way to get better. It doesn’t make sense to comment on song which is a joke or a noodle or however you’d call it because it’s not the best the artist could do.
Sorry if we offended anyone that’s not our intention it’s just our opinion what we are posting here.
It is sad that so many people don't try to get some friends together and play as a band.
Ofcourse it is easier if you can always do what you want and don't have to listen to other peoples opinion and have to make compromises but the music also benefist from being the music of not only one brain but of 3 or 4.
TBR
The computer can be a great tool for creating musical compositions... I myself have long tried to avoid it, and the truth is I still don't really need it - I record to a standalone 16-track harddisk recorder - but making edits to tracks, adding effects, and mastering an album just goes so much faster with the visual feedback audio editors provide.
Then there's VST's... That's actually a revolutionary feature of computer based music making... Even some in the wide range of freeware VST's can reproduce sounds that were previously only accessible via the purchase of very pricy synthesizers... And come to think of it, if you have a digital synthesizer (or even analog modelling synth) what it actually is, is a midi controller for it's own inbuilt software... So, yeah...
The different approach of creating music in a sample tracker or a sequencer like FL studio may not appeal to everyone. Pattern based sequencing lends itself perfectly for creating fully electronic music - but if you think about the structure of rock music - that's really pattern based music aswell. You have an INTRO, and then VERSE, BRIDGE, CHORUS, VERSE 2 (similar to verse 1, with something extra), CHORUS 2, OUTTRO for instance. Those are pretty much tightly outlined patterns there... And being able to think in "blocks" like that (like this would be an I/ABCAC/O structure) is really something you need to be able to do if you want to be a good songwriting musician... Also, I've found that when playing in a band, in my mind I would picture a visual representation of the timeline and pattern-structure of the song so I could keep track where we were while really getting deeply into playing my part, and staying metronome tight all the way. I referred to this as "running a virtual sequencer program in my brain"... It never failed me...
And as you can hear by the music I have on here, I incorporate both worlds in my music (though I mainly use hardware, btw... but once again those hardware pieces are really just controller devices for the software that they have inside....).... I also do this stuff "LIVE" - I'm using a Korg EMX to take care of the drum, synth and bass parts while I play guitar and sing myself. I record my guitar to a loop station (on stage) and let it play parts back for me so I can create more layers of guitars and even vocals. Don't be fooled - It's hard work all the way to doctor the loop station and the EMX - I'm DJ'ing the EMX live too - muting parts and shifting through the patterns which I, yes - DID pre-program... You know what the best part of this deal is? I can do my own stuff without bandmembers screwing up chord progressions and complaining about artistic differences etc... so my music goes right to the audience in it's purest form, the way I intended it. Thanks to computers and the digital era, that is!
Even the analog TR606 on my analog studio in The Attic is "Computer Controlled"!
So is the computer a musical instrument? In fact it's much more. It's an audio editor, virtual synth, mastering suite, and heck it can even burn the actual CD's. And aid in creating the videos to your hit songs too... It's a complete production station, you'd be crazy if you'd turn your back on it.
have a nice day,
PX
Then there's VST's... That's actually a revolutionary feature of computer based music making... Even some in the wide range of freeware VST's can reproduce sounds that were previously only accessible via the purchase of very pricy synthesizers... And come to think of it, if you have a digital synthesizer (or even analog modelling synth) what it actually is, is a midi controller for it's own inbuilt software... So, yeah...
The different approach of creating music in a sample tracker or a sequencer like FL studio may not appeal to everyone. Pattern based sequencing lends itself perfectly for creating fully electronic music - but if you think about the structure of rock music - that's really pattern based music aswell. You have an INTRO, and then VERSE, BRIDGE, CHORUS, VERSE 2 (similar to verse 1, with something extra), CHORUS 2, OUTTRO for instance. Those are pretty much tightly outlined patterns there... And being able to think in "blocks" like that (like this would be an I/ABCAC/O structure) is really something you need to be able to do if you want to be a good songwriting musician... Also, I've found that when playing in a band, in my mind I would picture a visual representation of the timeline and pattern-structure of the song so I could keep track where we were while really getting deeply into playing my part, and staying metronome tight all the way. I referred to this as "running a virtual sequencer program in my brain"... It never failed me...
And as you can hear by the music I have on here, I incorporate both worlds in my music (though I mainly use hardware, btw... but once again those hardware pieces are really just controller devices for the software that they have inside....).... I also do this stuff "LIVE" - I'm using a Korg EMX to take care of the drum, synth and bass parts while I play guitar and sing myself. I record my guitar to a loop station (on stage) and let it play parts back for me so I can create more layers of guitars and even vocals. Don't be fooled - It's hard work all the way to doctor the loop station and the EMX - I'm DJ'ing the EMX live too - muting parts and shifting through the patterns which I, yes - DID pre-program... You know what the best part of this deal is? I can do my own stuff without bandmembers screwing up chord progressions and complaining about artistic differences etc... so my music goes right to the audience in it's purest form, the way I intended it. Thanks to computers and the digital era, that is!
Even the analog TR606 on my analog studio in The Attic is "Computer Controlled"!
So is the computer a musical instrument? In fact it's much more. It's an audio editor, virtual synth, mastering suite, and heck it can even burn the actual CD's. And aid in creating the videos to your hit songs too... It's a complete production station, you'd be crazy if you'd turn your back on it.
have a nice day,
PX
thebonbonrose wrote…
So why don’t call this site COMPUTERamp ?
(...)
Everybody can learn to play every instrument so if u want to be a one man band learn to play all the instruments you need and record them separately but don’t fake and put a massiv drumsolo into your song if you don’t even know what a snaredrum is. It’s just not fair for those who try hard to play a massiv drumsolo on real drums.
(...)
It is sad that so many people don't try to get some friends together and play as a band.
Ofcourse it is easier if you can always do what you want and don't have to listen to other peoples opinion and have to make compromises but the music also benefist from being the music of not only one brain but of 3 or 4.
4.
ok.. I am going to respond to these arguments here.
First one: what is fair anyway? Say that you are a DJ, creating your own pattern based music on a party via the use of a bunch of sequencers... You want to get a groove across; you want to pound out a massive drum solo that you have pre-programmed in one of your sequencers... Should you refrain from doing this because you don't actually own a drum kit? You want to get a groove across... It's not fair to get a groove across? In that case, please don't play any more CD's or MP3's containing music that you didn't create yourself. It's not fair to those who are not capable of creating professionally produced music, learn how to do it yourself before you ever plan to play another CD ever again.
Further... The vision different people have about music may cause them to NOT want to play with others in band. For my own music, I don't want other people's opinions when it comes to chord progressions, choice of instruments, or lyrics. My music comes from the depths of MY being, the part that makes me an individual, and this is MY personal vision regarding that.
Playing with others is nice, sometimes, but in the end I will always long to get back to my own project so I guess playing in a band is just not for me. Until I've found musicians willing to do what they're asked, trusting my vision, not immediately coming up with ill thought of alternative melody lines or ideas instead, I will continue to use my synthetic band members on who I can always rely to do exactly what I expect them to.
I put my stuff on this site so I can get feedback AFTER having developed the ideas... For fine-tuning afterwards, or just to see if the message comes across or not. That is just one way of dealing with one vision of music... Another one is "if you want to get a succesful band, forget about hiring your FRIENDS but get some musicians with a PROFESSIONAL attitude instead"... Think about that one
To avoid that the debate goes in the wrong direction, we´d better clarify our criticsms. One must distinguish between the different uses of computer. We haven t got a problem with those, who use it to create music, which simply cannot be played on, as some say "conventional" instruments. Thats fully alright because the computer is used to create something new and not to copy something.
Also, we are not asking anyone to go without computers at recording and editing songs, (which PuppetXeno might thought). We actually use a computer to record our songs. It would complete nonsense to avoid computers there.
BUT the point we are trying to make is, that a computer should not be used there, where it just replaces actual instruments. In this context a computer is NO instrument, but a simple fake of an instrument. Therefore it is "Original is the best!".
Nakedtoes4me said music is "a way to release communication from
your soul", hence a mean to express yourself.
That is our understanding of music as well, but we think u can better do that on real instruments. Tell me anyone please how he plays music on a computer. How he varies themes from time to time. Music is not a one man thing. Music must be played together. That´s the appeal of music. To make it together. To hear on one another. To create something new, something big, which one alone cant achieve, but together u can.
PuppetXeno also said : "Until I've found musicians willing to do what they're asked, trusting my vision, not immediately coming up with ill thought of alternative melody lines or ideas instead, I will continue using my synthetic band members on who I can always rely to do exactly what I expect them to."
That is not our understanding of music. Why do u need friends then, if u can have a computer ? We dont think that the quality of music suffers from the number of people, who are composing it. We belief. carried out in a constructive way, it even gets better. PuppetXeno´s attitude just shows his unwillingness and unableness to come to a compromise.
In the hope of a constructive debate ...
TBR
Also, we are not asking anyone to go without computers at recording and editing songs, (which PuppetXeno might thought). We actually use a computer to record our songs. It would complete nonsense to avoid computers there.
BUT the point we are trying to make is, that a computer should not be used there, where it just replaces actual instruments. In this context a computer is NO instrument, but a simple fake of an instrument. Therefore it is "Original is the best!".
Nakedtoes4me said music is "a way to release communication from
your soul", hence a mean to express yourself.
That is our understanding of music as well, but we think u can better do that on real instruments. Tell me anyone please how he plays music on a computer. How he varies themes from time to time. Music is not a one man thing. Music must be played together. That´s the appeal of music. To make it together. To hear on one another. To create something new, something big, which one alone cant achieve, but together u can.
PuppetXeno also said : "Until I've found musicians willing to do what they're asked, trusting my vision, not immediately coming up with ill thought of alternative melody lines or ideas instead, I will continue using my synthetic band members on who I can always rely to do exactly what I expect them to."
That is not our understanding of music. Why do u need friends then, if u can have a computer ? We dont think that the quality of music suffers from the number of people, who are composing it. We belief. carried out in a constructive way, it even gets better. PuppetXeno´s attitude just shows his unwillingness and unableness to come to a compromise.
In the hope of a constructive debate ...
TBR
Nope, I am not unable or unwilling to come to compromises... but I just want to carry out MY vision of music WITHOUT compromises, which is a result of my personal investigation into the many sides of life of which friends are a part. I am merely referring to my solo project - my artistic vision in it's purest form. I clearly stated that this is ONE way of dealing with ONE vision of music. I am not saying it is the ONLY RIGHT way of dealing with it, you are entitled to yours, but you are very wrong in stating that a computer is not a real instrument. It is just as real as any keyboard workstation, digital synthesizer, hardware sampler or sequencer or whatnot. And in my little storytelling I clearly pointed out that it is very much possible to incorporate computer based musicians in a live setting aswell... and that this is not WRONG to do, it's not cheating, it's just applying the tools that you have at your disposal. If I could find people who wanted to play the music that I present to them, without them being eager on making all sorts of ill conceived alterations, then I would gladly welcome them. Also, it's far easier to rehearse when you don't have to set dates across 4 or 5 different agendas...
Once again, the other vision I would like you to think about:
friends are for drinking and hangin out and having fun;
other musicians are for being in a band with - they do not necessarily have to be friends. in fact, it is a known fact that you might want to keep a healthy distance from the personal lives of the people you play in a band with. if you play with friends that are just not so good at what they're doing, you're going to have to let them go, eventually, which means losing a band member ASWELL as a friend. dunno if you ever experienced that, but it's not the nicest thing to happen. better to find good musicians who later become good friends!
Can't find good musicians? Allow a sequencer to take their place. Drum machines can take the role of a drummer, although it is a different instrument than an ACTUAL drummer, and should be treated as such... It can do different things a drummer can't do, why not make use of that? Just like a real drummer can do things a drum machine can't... And one more thing about electronic music: it's not a substitute for rock - it's an entirely different genre... I dare you to create a real techno song using guitars and a real drum kit, and make it sound as well produced! Same goes... that a computer cannot really do a very realistic rock tune... So don't try.... That's another part of my vision...
check these out:
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/1811.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/1648.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/1953.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/2306.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/2588.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/3424.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/3150.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/3465.html
I actually did a song with CreativeControl too, but this remains unreleased (sadly), and very recently, a bassline for a song by JBP (should be uploaded soon).
I'm not saying that my work on any of these songs is particulary good, but... I cannot come to compromises?
Once again, the other vision I would like you to think about:
friends are for drinking and hangin out and having fun;
other musicians are for being in a band with - they do not necessarily have to be friends. in fact, it is a known fact that you might want to keep a healthy distance from the personal lives of the people you play in a band with. if you play with friends that are just not so good at what they're doing, you're going to have to let them go, eventually, which means losing a band member ASWELL as a friend. dunno if you ever experienced that, but it's not the nicest thing to happen. better to find good musicians who later become good friends!
Can't find good musicians? Allow a sequencer to take their place. Drum machines can take the role of a drummer, although it is a different instrument than an ACTUAL drummer, and should be treated as such... It can do different things a drummer can't do, why not make use of that? Just like a real drummer can do things a drum machine can't... And one more thing about electronic music: it's not a substitute for rock - it's an entirely different genre... I dare you to create a real techno song using guitars and a real drum kit, and make it sound as well produced! Same goes... that a computer cannot really do a very realistic rock tune... So don't try.... That's another part of my vision...
check these out:
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/1811.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/1648.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/1953.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/2306.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/2588.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/3424.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/3150.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/3465.html
I actually did a song with CreativeControl too, but this remains unreleased (sadly), and very recently, a bassline for a song by JBP (should be uploaded soon).
I'm not saying that my work on any of these songs is particulary good, but... I cannot come to compromises?
Okay, here's another thesis to be discussed.
When is Art Art? When is Music Music?
Is the simple thought of 'creating art' enough to actually be artistic? When you give somebody a pencil and tell him to create art, is the outcome artsy even if he can't draw at all?
You can transpose this example to all kinds of Art. Even music.
NakedToes wrote:
I think ANY thing you have, if it is a computer, a software program,
an instrument, a fork or even a stick!
If you can make music with it.....then it is music!
Of course, this argument was written in the context of the proper instrument, but if you read it in terms of the Artistic factor, i personally dont agree with it:
I'm using examples of Visual Art here, just because it's easier to find examples:
When you start painting or drawing, your work is not immediately a piece of art. There is more to it than just the process of making it. You have to study technique, composition, setting and all kinds of different things to call yourself an "artist". When you paint something without having a clue about anything, it either looks naive or raw.
You cant just make music without thinking what you do. Even Improvising prerequests playing skills and knowledge of for example 'call and response-phrases'. As a beginner, you can't improvise as good as a professional.
There is no proper definition of art, but there are many criteria when it is art, for example Structure, Originality, Richness in detail. Your work should not be superficial but expressive, etc.
When you make music or visual art, you should at least TRY to match those criteria. Even if you're not a professional, you should try your best.
Thats what many bandampers lack of. When we meant "placing yourself behind a guitar for 10 minutes", we didnt want to criticize the process of noodling (which of course is expressive and intuitive) but the many people who just noodle and dont put effort into their projects. Why would you give up and just call it a noodle?
I guess everybody who calls himself a musician has to agree that making music is hard work and you have to put time into making it, learning the theory and doing your best in every project you start.
When you finish a project that really was a lot of work, its more satisfying than just making music for the quick sense of achievement you get after 10 minutes of noodling.
When is Art Art? When is Music Music?
Is the simple thought of 'creating art' enough to actually be artistic? When you give somebody a pencil and tell him to create art, is the outcome artsy even if he can't draw at all?
You can transpose this example to all kinds of Art. Even music.
NakedToes wrote:
I think ANY thing you have, if it is a computer, a software program,
an instrument, a fork or even a stick!
If you can make music with it.....then it is music!
Of course, this argument was written in the context of the proper instrument, but if you read it in terms of the Artistic factor, i personally dont agree with it:
I'm using examples of Visual Art here, just because it's easier to find examples:
When you start painting or drawing, your work is not immediately a piece of art. There is more to it than just the process of making it. You have to study technique, composition, setting and all kinds of different things to call yourself an "artist". When you paint something without having a clue about anything, it either looks naive or raw.
You cant just make music without thinking what you do. Even Improvising prerequests playing skills and knowledge of for example 'call and response-phrases'. As a beginner, you can't improvise as good as a professional.
There is no proper definition of art, but there are many criteria when it is art, for example Structure, Originality, Richness in detail. Your work should not be superficial but expressive, etc.
When you make music or visual art, you should at least TRY to match those criteria. Even if you're not a professional, you should try your best.
Thats what many bandampers lack of. When we meant "placing yourself behind a guitar for 10 minutes", we didnt want to criticize the process of noodling (which of course is expressive and intuitive) but the many people who just noodle and dont put effort into their projects. Why would you give up and just call it a noodle?
I guess everybody who calls himself a musician has to agree that making music is hard work and you have to put time into making it, learning the theory and doing your best in every project you start.
When you finish a project that really was a lot of work, its more satisfying than just making music for the quick sense of achievement you get after 10 minutes of noodling.
thebonbonrose wrote…
Okay, here's another thesis to be discussed.
When is Art Art? When is Music Music?
Is the simple thought of 'creating art' enough to actually be artistic? When you give somebody a pencil and tell him to create art, is the outcome artsy even if he can't draw at all?
You can transpose this example to all kinds of Art. Even music.
NakedToes wrote:
I think ANY thing you have, if it is a computer, a software program,
an instrument, a fork or even a stick!
If you can make music with it.....then it is music!
Of course, this argument was written in the context of the proper instrument, but if you read it in terms of the Artistic factor, i personally dont agree with it:
I'm using examples of Visual Art here, just because it's easier to find examples:
When you start painting or drawing, your work is not immediately a piece of art. There is more to it than just the process of making it. You have to study technique, composition, setting and all kinds of different things to call yourself an "artist". When you paint something without having a clue about anything, it either looks naive or raw.
You cant just make music without thinking what you do. Even Improvising prerequests playing skills and knowledge of for example 'call and response-phrases'. As a beginner, you can't improvise as good as a professional.
There is no proper definition of art, but there are many criteria when it is art, for example Structure, Originality, Richness in detail. Your work should not be superficial but expressive, etc.
When you make music or visual art, you should at least TRY to match those criteria.
And here I must disagree with you on some points.... granted no beginner makes "ART" but that is not the artistic statement She was making... she was saying that art can be made from a stick. Art can be madefroma computer, are we not to use a computer t make art until we can paint with a brush? but wait, Maybe I should not paint with a brush until I can sculpt from clay? And what ART is is a discussion brought here before, And everyone EVERYWHERE has their OWN opinion on what art is... hence the reason you can sell anything, someone will like it, and buy it.....
There are no basic rules to art, there are basic rules that a piece must follow if you are in an "art" class in school... But, Art is all about breaking conventional rules and thought.... going out into a new unconfining dimension and bringing back a piece of that world.... so, I disagree with you on that.....
thebonbonrose wrote…
Even if you're not a professional, you should try your best.
Thats what many bandampers lack of. When we meant "placing yourself behind a guitar for 10 minutes", we didnt want to criticize the process of noodling (which of course is expressive and intuitive) but the many people who just noodle and dont put effort into their projects. Why would you give up and just call it a noodle?
I guess everybody who calls himself a musician has to agree that making music is hard work and you have to put time into making it, learning the theory and doing your best in every project you start.
When you finish a project that really was a lot of work, its more satisfying than just making music for the quick sense of achievement you get after 10 minutes of noodling.
I think many people here do try their best, there are very few people here who don't .... But, tell me..... Why does it bother you if someone puts a stupid song on here, and says" it's stupid I know it, I was just goofing around and his came out" ?? I mean, THey told you it's stupid, and meant to be stupid, but thought you might get a kick out of it.... Has not your own band members or yourself done this at a practice? I know EVERY band I was in from 1980 on we had this happen almost every practice... either the bass player came up with some stupid riff he wanted to show us, because it sounded so weird.. or the guitarist started going off key on purpose to make us laugh, then improvised the whole song, which didn't sound so good, but made us laugh, and we all had a good time.. I think that when someone puts one of those "I was goofing around " songs on here, they are looking at us as friends, and wanting to share with their friends... And I am glad to be a friend...
JimK
| as for the comment |
of computers replacing instruments.... I use a drum samples, I just recently started trying to use a sequencer for them... before I was cutting and pasting... which took days to complete one drum track..
But, I am only one person, and I play ALL the instruments... Rythm Guitar, Bass Guitar, Lead Guitar, Vocals, all are me.. I even play keyboards... BUT, I don't have the room for a drum kit... I want one so bad I can taste it.. but I have no room.... and my wife already puts up with enough crap with all my other instruments... I have enough to open a music store.. I play, everything... because I want to.... But I use a computer to generate my drums because I have to... many people on here are the same... and to be honest I think they sound ok... not as good as a real drummer but that's cool.... The thing about this site is it's here to help you develop musically, not become famous... It isn't called BandAmp because it is for Bands only... it is called Band amp because many other names were taken.... But Mud could clarify that better... BTW, he is the creator of the site.. the founder, and did you know that he uses a computer for drums... hmm... I wonder what he thinks.....
JimK
But, I am only one person, and I play ALL the instruments... Rythm Guitar, Bass Guitar, Lead Guitar, Vocals, all are me.. I even play keyboards... BUT, I don't have the room for a drum kit... I want one so bad I can taste it.. but I have no room.... and my wife already puts up with enough crap with all my other instruments... I have enough to open a music store.. I play, everything... because I want to.... But I use a computer to generate my drums because I have to... many people on here are the same... and to be honest I think they sound ok... not as good as a real drummer but that's cool.... The thing about this site is it's here to help you develop musically, not become famous... It isn't called BandAmp because it is for Bands only... it is called Band amp because many other names were taken.... But Mud could clarify that better... BTW, he is the creator of the site.. the founder, and did you know that he uses a computer for drums... hmm... I wonder what he thinks.....
JimK
thebonbonrose wrote…
Sorry if we offended anyone that’s not our intention it’s just our opinion what we are posting here.
It is sad that so many people don't try to get some friends together and play as a band.
Ofcourse it is easier if you can always do what you want and don't have to listen to other peoples opinion and have to make compromises but the music also benefist from being the music of not only one brain but of 3 or 4.
TBR
I don't believe it........... It was your intention to offend, or else you would not have said "THis site is called BANDamp, not NERDamp"
That in and of itself is an offensive statement aimed to insult... That aside... Like I said before, I did the band thing for 20+ years... I want a break.. some time to do my own thing.... Bands are great for what they do, solo efforts add another whole dimension to your music..
thebonbonrose wrote…
tell me how he plays music on a computer
Well, when I play music on my computer, I use my keyboard(The one that came with the computer, that I am typing on now) and I can play notes.... Lots of notes, using the keys like a mixed up piano... I also use a Keyboard, and play the notes on the keyboard.... now wait,. a keyboard is an instrument, or is it not in your eyes, because it is computer driven? hmm... Confusing...
