I'd just like to say that punk music sucks ass, no matter who wrote it or who it is performed by or who it was produced by or whether it uses synth or not. It's just shitty music.
On another point, I think that to decide whether computer generated music is music or not, you have to decide on a concrete definition of music ( I almost said definite definition here lol).
So here's mine....
Music: The creative expression and conveying of emotion and thoughts through a medium received by way of sound, incorporating original rhythms, melodies, and harmonies.
Well, that's what I got after 5 minutes of thinking about it.
So. I'd say that computer music is absolutely music, just as much as the next guy on BandAmp, or any famous band you care to mention. I'd also say that punk music is music, even as much as I hate it.
Please, define music as you see it. I'd be very interested, and I think it would certainly let us see everyone's side of the argument much more clearly.
On another point, I think that to decide whether computer generated music is music or not, you have to decide on a concrete definition of music ( I almost said definite definition here lol).
So here's mine....
Music: The creative expression and conveying of emotion and thoughts through a medium received by way of sound, incorporating original rhythms, melodies, and harmonies.
Well, that's what I got after 5 minutes of thinking about it.
So. I'd say that computer music is absolutely music, just as much as the next guy on BandAmp, or any famous band you care to mention. I'd also say that punk music is music, even as much as I hate it.
Please, define music as you see it. I'd be very interested, and I think it would certainly let us see everyone's side of the argument much more clearly.
Oldies324 wrote…
I'd just like to say that punk music sucks ass, no matter who wrote it or who it is performed by or who it was produced by or whether it uses synth or not. It's just shitty music.
| weeping..... |
Oldies324 wrote…I'd just like to say that punk music sucks ass, no matter who wrote it or who it is performed by or who it was produced by or whether it uses synth or not. It's just shitty music.
BUT DUDE!!!!!!! THAT IS LIKE MOST OF MY MUSIC!!!! PUNK!!!
Even though I don't listen to much punk.. simply because I can't really get into alot of what is on the radio..
JimK
| give unto ceasar |
What a wide ranging discussion! We have two real threads here. One is about enjoyment vs. respect. The other is about studio tracks and use of samples and other tecnical based misical construction vs. live music. You have all made good points, which means these are worthwhile issues.
Let's look at the enjoyment vs. respect issue. You can definitely respect something without enjoying it. We respect that which we fear, but we don't enjoy it. We may respect authority but not enjoy it. So it is possible to respect what we don't enjoy.
But what about enjoying something that you don't respect. In this case, lets limit to things that we enjoy as that are created in an act of artistic expression. If you see a painting, or you hear a song, and you enjoy it, then probably the art was intended to be enjoyable, and the artist has succeeded. Why wouldn't you respect the talent and skill that went into it? Because it wasn't complex like Motzart? Expressing oneself simply is a gift and a talent in itself. Certainly not all simple art is enjoyable. Whether the art takes a simple form, a highly complex form, or something in between, if it is done successfully, it is deserving of respect.
How much respect is it deserving of? Each of us will alot a different measure, to be sure. Jimmy Buffet's "Margeuritaville" is a great song and I respect him for writing it and perfoming it, but I don't respect him as much as I respect Beethoven or Motzart. They were geniuses, and their music shows that. They are one in ten-million, and they are typically respected as such. Buffet is a good popular song writer, and his music reflects that. But he isn't one in ten-million - maybe one in ten-thousand. That is deserving of respect, but not at the Motzart level.
We should respect each artist for their contribution to their particular medium, and according to their skills and talents. Talent is typically more respected than skill. Techno music requres talent to do it well, but it is much more the product of skills learned in the studio than it is of musical talent. So while the techno-music creator should be respected, heshe may not be as highly respected as the talented songwriter/performer. But if you take two studio techincians with equual skills, the one with the higher talent level will create much better techno-music.
So skill and talent are just that - skill and talent. They come together to create music that is unique, for the appreciation and enjoyment of the audience. If it succeeds in doing that, surely respect is due. Lack of respect is equal to disrespect, and certainly they have earned better than that.
Perhaps in saying showing no respect for a studio band, one is simply expressing ambivelance toward studio music. This is personal musical preference, and we are all entitled to our preferences. Ambivalence doesn't indicate disrespect, just disinterest.
Let's look at the enjoyment vs. respect issue. You can definitely respect something without enjoying it. We respect that which we fear, but we don't enjoy it. We may respect authority but not enjoy it. So it is possible to respect what we don't enjoy.
But what about enjoying something that you don't respect. In this case, lets limit to things that we enjoy as that are created in an act of artistic expression. If you see a painting, or you hear a song, and you enjoy it, then probably the art was intended to be enjoyable, and the artist has succeeded. Why wouldn't you respect the talent and skill that went into it? Because it wasn't complex like Motzart? Expressing oneself simply is a gift and a talent in itself. Certainly not all simple art is enjoyable. Whether the art takes a simple form, a highly complex form, or something in between, if it is done successfully, it is deserving of respect.
How much respect is it deserving of? Each of us will alot a different measure, to be sure. Jimmy Buffet's "Margeuritaville" is a great song and I respect him for writing it and perfoming it, but I don't respect him as much as I respect Beethoven or Motzart. They were geniuses, and their music shows that. They are one in ten-million, and they are typically respected as such. Buffet is a good popular song writer, and his music reflects that. But he isn't one in ten-million - maybe one in ten-thousand. That is deserving of respect, but not at the Motzart level.
We should respect each artist for their contribution to their particular medium, and according to their skills and talents. Talent is typically more respected than skill. Techno music requres talent to do it well, but it is much more the product of skills learned in the studio than it is of musical talent. So while the techno-music creator should be respected, heshe may not be as highly respected as the talented songwriter/performer. But if you take two studio techincians with equual skills, the one with the higher talent level will create much better techno-music.
So skill and talent are just that - skill and talent. They come together to create music that is unique, for the appreciation and enjoyment of the audience. If it succeeds in doing that, surely respect is due. Lack of respect is equal to disrespect, and certainly they have earned better than that.
Perhaps in saying showing no respect for a studio band, one is simply expressing ambivelance toward studio music. This is personal musical preference, and we are all entitled to our preferences. Ambivalence doesn't indicate disrespect, just disinterest.
| indeed |
very well worded, Simon, and I wholly agree.
though the correct way to spell Amadeus is "Mozart" who by all means, "made brilliant mustard"
Furthering this... no respect equals disrespect, and disrespect means questioning it's right to exist.
Having "no particular respect" equals Ambivalence, which is alright with me.
For good measure I sincerely hope the eventual point akuard was trying to make is what kings worded as "(...) some people hate the hypocrisy they experience from a Corporate Engineered Music World, and then label anything that derives from or resembles that world as 'false',"
which is indeed the exact reason why I don't even have a radio at home!
Well, the real reason is, because of "corporate compromise", I hardly hear anything really original, provokative or innovative on the radio, no matter what station I tune into. I hear enough radio at the job and other places as it is... And I really can't stand radio commercials, and DJ's who are obviously selected on number of lacking brain cells and ability to disregard any sense of advanced reasoning within the brain cells they DO have, or even within the huge amounts of - pouring in by telepathic input.... Um... Let's just say I respect them as much as they respect my personal flow of thoughts when I am unwillingly confronted with them while working myself to sweat on the workfloor. The radio has an "off" button but that will induce fights with my coworkers... I'll violently pump out my next version of "Burning to Rebel" when I get home instead. And to me THAT's the true spirit of punk music...
Uh, so, I am very ambivalent toward the "corporate" music scene, which includes MTV (haven't watched any since the late 90's of the previous century) and a few other stations. It makes me feel uncomfortable because I know I will not get there... I am unwilling to make the necessary compromises... I want to be "authentic" and "pure" in my own creative efforts, and that is my personal choice. But I feel happy for those who did get there and are happy with it, and I feel sorry for those who feel are "trapped" inside that world (sometimes they are the same people caught on different time instances of their carreers)... They owe it to themselves... It was their own call to go for it, eventually - I recognize their right to exist, so I do not disrespect them.
Again, as kings put it:
"A lot of work goes into making the music we hear on the radio, whether the artist and engineers should be doing something better with they're time is a different matter."
as far as I'm concerned, I'd say "case closed", unless anyone wants to share some more thoughts?
though the correct way to spell Amadeus is "Mozart" who by all means, "made brilliant mustard"
Furthering this... no respect equals disrespect, and disrespect means questioning it's right to exist.
Having "no particular respect" equals Ambivalence, which is alright with me.
For good measure I sincerely hope the eventual point akuard was trying to make is what kings worded as "(...) some people hate the hypocrisy they experience from a Corporate Engineered Music World, and then label anything that derives from or resembles that world as 'false',"
which is indeed the exact reason why I don't even have a radio at home!
Well, the real reason is, because of "corporate compromise", I hardly hear anything really original, provokative or innovative on the radio, no matter what station I tune into. I hear enough radio at the job and other places as it is... And I really can't stand radio commercials, and DJ's who are obviously selected on number of lacking brain cells and ability to disregard any sense of advanced reasoning within the brain cells they DO have, or even within the huge amounts of - pouring in by telepathic input.... Um... Let's just say I respect them as much as they respect my personal flow of thoughts when I am unwillingly confronted with them while working myself to sweat on the workfloor. The radio has an "off" button but that will induce fights with my coworkers... I'll violently pump out my next version of "Burning to Rebel" when I get home instead. And to me THAT's the true spirit of punk music...
Uh, so, I am very ambivalent toward the "corporate" music scene, which includes MTV (haven't watched any since the late 90's of the previous century) and a few other stations. It makes me feel uncomfortable because I know I will not get there... I am unwilling to make the necessary compromises... I want to be "authentic" and "pure" in my own creative efforts, and that is my personal choice. But I feel happy for those who did get there and are happy with it, and I feel sorry for those who feel are "trapped" inside that world (sometimes they are the same people caught on different time instances of their carreers)... They owe it to themselves... It was their own call to go for it, eventually - I recognize their right to exist, so I do not disrespect them.
Again, as kings put it:
"A lot of work goes into making the music we hear on the radio, whether the artist and engineers should be doing something better with they're time is a different matter."
as far as I'm concerned, I'd say "case closed", unless anyone wants to share some more thoughts?
I'm sorry. I think our definitions of punk are different. (here I go again with my definitions) I meant what you probably think of as "Alternative Rock", such as Greenday, Simple Plan, and that sort of thing.
If you mean the kind of punk PX makes, then no, i don't think that music sucks. I very much enjoy and respect that kind of punk.
What I meant was, now-popular alternative bands like Greenday and Simple Plan suck ass.
If you mean the kind of punk PX makes, then no, i don't think that music sucks. I very much enjoy and respect that kind of punk.
What I meant was, now-popular alternative bands like Greenday and Simple Plan suck ass.
No respect doesn't mean disrespect. How does no respect mean disrespect? You see a person on the subway, you have a choice - wave in respect, ignore them in no respect, or flip them off in disrespect. How is that un-understandable?
But, Techno is the person who uses the machine as an instrument and not a tool. I am talking about bands who layer so dramatically thay they actually sound better than they ever can play.
simon wrote…
So while the techno-music creator should be respected, heshe may not be as highly respected as the talented songwriter/performer. But if you take two studio techincians with equual skills, the one with the higher talent level will create much better techno-music.
| *sigh* |
akuard, you clearly haven't read or refuse to understand a thing of what's been written earlier in this thread.
The "no respect" you mention in your example is the "ambivalence" that simon spoke of.
Having "No Respect" in the sense of "Zero Respect" for these people, would be excessively rude and naieve to the point of sheer stupidity. And read this Very Thoroughly...
Many of these people actually have jobs that somehow make your life more comfortable... Together they form the society that you are part of... Without them, buildings would not be built, power plants would not be operational, the food you eat, the clothes you wear would not be available in stores, the internet you're on would not have been developed, and no-one would receive any education that would make them capable of one day performing these necessary jobs themselves.
In fact, merely being "ambivalent" toward the strangers outside your door is near disrespectful in itself, and definately qualifies as "arrogance". Akuard, you need to become more humble... FAST
and it doesn't mean you have to wave at them in respect, you can just go on with your business as usual, but just becoming more aware of your surroundings and the world outside your own frame of mind probably will only make you a better person.
OK... last thing
"Bands who layer so dramatically that they actually sound better than they can ever play (live)" was already covered in the fact that studio compositions do not have to represent the live sound of a band, it's music created for the groove, the song, art for art's sake, not to show off what an artist is capable of playing one instrument in one take without the use of any electronic aid (which eventually means No amplifier, no effects stomp boxes etc), and the live sound of a band does not have to be an exact reproduction of the studio recordings... THEY ARE DIFFERENT MEDIA...
And then there's the effective comment made by TritonKeyboarder:
"I respect what someone is doing live on stage or at home in his/her home studio. And it doesnt matter if I like it or not.
A short statement by me but extremely effective x"
Do You Understand It Now?
The "no respect" you mention in your example is the "ambivalence" that simon spoke of.
Having "No Respect" in the sense of "Zero Respect" for these people, would be excessively rude and naieve to the point of sheer stupidity. And read this Very Thoroughly...
Many of these people actually have jobs that somehow make your life more comfortable... Together they form the society that you are part of... Without them, buildings would not be built, power plants would not be operational, the food you eat, the clothes you wear would not be available in stores, the internet you're on would not have been developed, and no-one would receive any education that would make them capable of one day performing these necessary jobs themselves.
In fact, merely being "ambivalent" toward the strangers outside your door is near disrespectful in itself, and definately qualifies as "arrogance". Akuard, you need to become more humble... FAST
and it doesn't mean you have to wave at them in respect, you can just go on with your business as usual, but just becoming more aware of your surroundings and the world outside your own frame of mind probably will only make you a better person.
OK... last thing
"Bands who layer so dramatically that they actually sound better than they can ever play (live)" was already covered in the fact that studio compositions do not have to represent the live sound of a band, it's music created for the groove, the song, art for art's sake, not to show off what an artist is capable of playing one instrument in one take without the use of any electronic aid (which eventually means No amplifier, no effects stomp boxes etc), and the live sound of a band does not have to be an exact reproduction of the studio recordings... THEY ARE DIFFERENT MEDIA...
And then there's the effective comment made by TritonKeyboarder:
"I respect what someone is doing live on stage or at home in his/her home studio. And it doesnt matter if I like it or not.
A short statement by me but extremely effective x"
Do You Understand It Now?
Akuard; does not a guitar pedal make your guitar sound in a way that you could never actually do without it?
Thus, according to your way of thinking, people who use guitar pedals and other effects should not be respected.
And, as I have previously stated, don't pickups alter the sound of your guitar as well? If you switch the pickup configuration, the guitar sounds different. But without a pickup you could never make any of those twangy noises, not to mention play loud enough.
So......pure acoustic?
Thus, according to your way of thinking, people who use guitar pedals and other effects should not be respected.
And, as I have previously stated, don't pickups alter the sound of your guitar as well? If you switch the pickup configuration, the guitar sounds different. But without a pickup you could never make any of those twangy noises, not to mention play loud enough.
So......pure acoustic?
Xeno wrote…
akuard, you clearly haven't read or refuse to understand a thing of what's been written earlier in this thread.
xeno wrote…
Furthering this... no respect equals disrespect, and disrespect means questioning it's right to exist.
Having "no particular respect" equals Ambivalence, which is alright with me.
xeno wrote…
studio compositions do not have to represent the live sound of a band, it's music created for the groove, the song, art for art's sake, not to show off what an artist is capable of playing one instrument in one take without the use of any electronic aid (which eventually means No amplifier, no effects stomp boxes etc), and the live sound of a band does not have to be an exact reproduction of the studio recordings... THEY ARE DIFFERENT MEDIA...
old wrote…
Akuard; does not a guitar pedal make your guitar sound in a way that you could never actually do without it?
Thus, according to your way of thinking, people who use guitar pedals and other effects should not be respected.
| studio /live |
Man I have seen quite a few concerts and I don't think any one of them is like the studio songs that were recorded. That does not mean that the artist still did not kick ass live. Black Sabbath, Jethro Tull, Robin Trower,Led Zeppelin, Van Halen, Boston, Santana, Al Di Meola, Vital Information. I've seen these bands and heard there recorded music. I can't think of any of them that did not change the songs for live show.They still all kick ass though.
I'm not trying to dog on you but I want to respond to this statement:
"It is lazy. I practice too much and watch modern punk bands become famous with a complete lack of skill and respect for the musicians that came before them. I spend hours listening to B.B King and Buddy Guy trying to tab it out and train my ear. I've spent two years listening to various jazz solos trying to figure out how exactly they're composing their music. (I've recently discovered scales and am trying to teach myself to learn to build chords.)"
Becoming famous and popular with the masses has nothing to do with talent, or how much you've practiced, or how accomplished of a musician, or music software programmer. It has to do with right place,right time, hard work toward that goal only. and lots of good marketing stratigies. You should never compare yourself to popular music no matter what genre. If your just practicing so you can become famous IMHO your missing the whole idea You should perfect your technique through hours and years of diligent practice just for the sake of the music itself, not for fame. In the end fame goes away, but dedication to the music itself no one can take away, and that includes people who write music with their computers too, IMHO that is also a form of art "they create something from nothing with just there ideas and the tools given them".
Thanks for having this thread and allowing us to discuss our diffrent views on things.
I'm not trying to dog on you but I want to respond to this statement:
"It is lazy. I practice too much and watch modern punk bands become famous with a complete lack of skill and respect for the musicians that came before them. I spend hours listening to B.B King and Buddy Guy trying to tab it out and train my ear. I've spent two years listening to various jazz solos trying to figure out how exactly they're composing their music. (I've recently discovered scales and am trying to teach myself to learn to build chords.)"
Becoming famous and popular with the masses has nothing to do with talent, or how much you've practiced, or how accomplished of a musician, or music software programmer. It has to do with right place,right time, hard work toward that goal only. and lots of good marketing stratigies. You should never compare yourself to popular music no matter what genre. If your just practicing so you can become famous IMHO your missing the whole idea You should perfect your technique through hours and years of diligent practice just for the sake of the music itself, not for fame. In the end fame goes away, but dedication to the music itself no one can take away, and that includes people who write music with their computers too, IMHO that is also a form of art "they create something from nothing with just there ideas and the tools given them".
Thanks for having this thread and allowing us to discuss our diffrent views on things.
Nonono. You're misunderstanding me. I am talking specifically about the bands that only display their "Talent" with studio magic. The bands that suck ass live. The BEST example is shinedown. Excellent studio, live is like kicking oneself in the nuts, and I've seen them three times now.
| I don't begrudge them |
Nirvana #1 song for 11 weeks not a good live band. So What.
Alot of people like them, and I won't begrudge a band that finds a nitch, or following cause they must be doing something right enough that people like them. You know when the Beatles first started making some noise alot of established critics really put them down ,didn't matter though. In the rock genre and I mean all of the rock genre's except progressive, it's not about extreme talent it's about writing a good song that either sets a mood, or idea, or attitiude that some of the people can identify with. This is only my point of view. I used to play the same club and did some shows with Puddle Of Mud. Talent wise we were better, determination to succeed they were better. Don't begrudge them.
Alot of people like them, and I won't begrudge a band that finds a nitch, or following cause they must be doing something right enough that people like them. You know when the Beatles first started making some noise alot of established critics really put them down ,didn't matter though. In the rock genre and I mean all of the rock genre's except progressive, it's not about extreme talent it's about writing a good song that either sets a mood, or idea, or attitiude that some of the people can identify with. This is only my point of view. I used to play the same club and did some shows with Puddle Of Mud. Talent wise we were better, determination to succeed they were better. Don't begrudge them.
| dear akuard |
what a waste of money to go see a sucking band live three times.
However: they made money over your disappoinment, and they couldn't care less, while you have grown bitter in the process. And I laugh with them... silly you.
also:
really? in this case - obviously, your mind is lacking neuron activity. taking my statements out of context again, you think you are actually coming up with a valid argument here. how sad!
and you don't respect the medium then huh?
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/3631.html#id37669
hypocrite! this is a home studio recording, how dare you show any respect for this.
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/3571.html#id37665
wha??? this is a studio recording. How dare you show any respect for this. LIAR.
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/2103_page2.html#id20192
That was just rude, commenting to a studio recording, for which you have no respect, and then constructively critiquing. What a folly! Who the hell do you think you are!
...
In other words.. That's three times criminal offense... Enough to get you banned forgood... Also it doesn't help that you are ignoring any comments made by others in this thread, like simon's, like kings', like tritonkeyboarder's, like toastedgoat's, like oldies' (twisting his comment out of context into something he never meant to say - I'd like to add "It takes a bit of skill and practice to work studio technology properly".), ....
why am I even wasting time...
However: they made money over your disappoinment, and they couldn't care less, while you have grown bitter in the process. And I laugh with them... silly you.
also:
akuard wrote…
xeno wrote…
Furthering this... no respect equals disrespect, and disrespect means questioning it's right to exist.
Having "no particular respect" equals Ambivalence, which is alright with me.
By adding an adjective it becomes alright? Sorry, that isn't how my mind works.
really? in this case - obviously, your mind is lacking neuron activity. taking my statements out of context again, you think you are actually coming up with a valid argument here. how sad!
and you don't respect the medium then huh?
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/3631.html#id37669
hypocrite! this is a home studio recording, how dare you show any respect for this.
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/3571.html#id37665
wha??? this is a studio recording. How dare you show any respect for this. LIAR.
http://forum.bandamp.com/Audio_Review/2103_page2.html#id20192
That was just rude, commenting to a studio recording, for which you have no respect, and then constructively critiquing. What a folly! Who the hell do you think you are!
...
In other words.. That's three times criminal offense... Enough to get you banned forgood... Also it doesn't help that you are ignoring any comments made by others in this thread, like simon's, like kings', like tritonkeyboarder's, like toastedgoat's, like oldies' (twisting his comment out of context into something he never meant to say - I'd like to add "It takes a bit of skill and practice to work studio technology properly".), ....
why am I even wasting time...
| I haven't seen shinedown |
I haven't seen Shinedown but they played here in KC at some kinda out door thing and the people I know that went said they were real good. Thay ain't musicians though.