| Studio Composition vs Live Music |
So, someone said "I can't respect a studio composition/band, I can enjoy it, but not respect it."
I find that a very odd statement, to say the least... How can one not respect something he can enjoy, if it isn't by laughing at it or using it as welcome toilet paper?
Anyway, that's not the point... What is wrong with creating music in a studio, how is this "fake" in comparison to live music?
How is "automation" - the use of sequencers or backing tracks "fake" or "degrading" a live musicians show?
I am intrigued by these thoughts, which are not my own....
I would like to hear some solid arguments, so... Fire ahead...
(doesn't Christmas come early this year?)
I find that a very odd statement, to say the least... How can one not respect something he can enjoy, if it isn't by laughing at it or using it as welcome toilet paper?
Anyway, that's not the point... What is wrong with creating music in a studio, how is this "fake" in comparison to live music?
How is "automation" - the use of sequencers or backing tracks "fake" or "degrading" a live musicians show?
I am intrigued by these thoughts, which are not my own....
I would like to hear some solid arguments, so... Fire ahead...
(doesn't Christmas come early this year?)
| Yes |
I've followed the discussion about 'chipped or boiled potatoes', all 'tatws' to me though!
It's a pretty full-on discussion if you ask me
But I do think that every body was missing the very first comment (except those who didn't!) :
Quote : "Nakedtoes4me - I think ANY thing you have, if it is a computer, a software program,
an instrument, a fork or even a stick!" ([edit]stones too I hope!)
And to give you my view - "Music and all musical instruments and all means of making music are but tools to express the human cry which, in its purest form would be the voice, the rest is the creativity of our worldly minds".
It could be that the person 'enjoying' but not 'respecting' something simply has another view, they may separate the two into different states, their respect might entail being 'humble' towards something/someone where as enjoying something/someone does not.
It's a pretty full-on discussion if you ask me
But I do think that every body was missing the very first comment (except those who didn't!) :
Quote : "Nakedtoes4me - I think ANY thing you have, if it is a computer, a software program,
an instrument, a fork or even a stick!" ([edit]stones too I hope!)
And to give you my view - "Music and all musical instruments and all means of making music are but tools to express the human cry which, in its purest form would be the voice, the rest is the creativity of our worldly minds".
It could be that the person 'enjoying' but not 'respecting' something simply has another view, they may separate the two into different states, their respect might entail being 'humble' towards something/someone where as enjoying something/someone does not.
| Live or jive.... |
This is an important point, isn't it? I know it's hard for me to get a good take in studio situation, and I also respect a great studio musician. but i like the energy of a live performance. Now I know some studios are set up for the whole band to play and feel at home, and that usually sounds better than drum machines and synths, at least to me, but what do I know, anyway? my current plan is to record my songs live, and mix them. I did download audacity, and I think you were right Kings, it's just an audio program, but works well to change wave files to mp3's, with an additional file DL. But, I remembered that I also have Sound Forge5 on my computer, and will be using it.
| re: Live or jive.... |
hp13 wrote…
This is an important point, isn't it? I know it's hard for me to get a good take in studio situation, and I also respect a great studio musician. but i like the energy of a live performance. Now I know some studios are set up for the whole band to play and feel at home, and that usually sounds better than drum machines and synths, at least to me, but what do I know, anyway? my current plan is to record my songs live, and mix them. I did download audacity, and I think you were right Kings, it's just an audio program, but works well to change wave files to mp3's, with an additional file DL. But, I remembered that I also have Sound Forge5 on my computer, and will be using it.
Audacious is an audio program....
Audacity is a multitrack recording software, that works great... It doesn't have alot of effects... but it has a graphic EQ and some other filters... I am brimming with software, Cool Edit Pro, FLStudio 6, Cubase SX but I still use Audacity to do my recording... I find it is easy and works great... never a problem...
And no latency... Love that!
JimK
| Live/Studio? |
Why not both. I love to do both.
| re: audacity |
Yeah, I thought it was good too, I DL'd the plug-ins, and the file that let's you export as mp3. I had a question aside from that... I was questioned about copyright, and wondered how this works, are we publishing our music by uploading it here, and if a song, or tune has any promise ??? have any of you actually sold music, or ???
| Back to Topic |
hp13 wrote…
Yeah, I thought it was good too, I DL'd the plug-ins, and the file that let's you export as mp3. I had a question aside from that... I was questioned about copyright, and wondered how this works, are we publishing our music by uploading it here, and if a song, or tune has any promise ??? have any of you actually sold music, or ???
ok to answer your questions first: this is what you agree to when you upload a song: http://about.bandamp.com/license.html (take your time to read it carefully)
And back to topic:
Personally I think the mistake that certain people make while comparing live music with studio music, is that they are really different media. Live music does not have to be a 100% accurate reproduction of the album recording... Neither does the album recording has to represent the "live" sound of the band. One thing live music and studio music DO have in common is that it's all about the music... the songs... the groove... Not about showing off a musician's talent... Well, talent for creating the groove, in what way whatsoever - but if one can pull this off by just hitting a metal pipe against an empty barrell, there is not much skill required for that. It can still be pretty groovy... And if the same artist uses custom designed audio software, piling up a bunch of pre-recorded samples to get the same "BwAaAaHhhHHhnnngggg" to sound as groovy as it would "live", then I'd say "mission completed".
And if that same artist uses a midi trigger inside the barrell to have bunch of those samples play along while doing the actual thing live onstage, I'd say "resourceful thinking!" and I'd enjoy it altogether. Like I said to me music is about the groove, about the show, about the fun, and it greatly depends on what act wants to achieve what in order to determine whether they sound better "live" than "studio" and whether they do themselves justice by having "automation" run along or not.
I respect them for being artists. Period. And I'll enjoy it altogether
| re: Studio Composition vs Live Music |
PuppetXeno wrote…
So, someone said "I can't respect a studio composition/band, I can enjoy it, but not respect it."
I find that a very odd statement, to say the least... How can one not respect something he can enjoy, if it isn't by laughing at it or using it as welcome toilet paper?
:
I can enjoy something but not respect it. Say I'm enjoying a tune but know full well it didn't take any skill to produce/compose. Enjoying but not particularly respecting.
Then there is Mozart, I respect alot of his compositions but can't stand them. Find them boring, dreary, not worth the time. But I respect the skill it took to compose and am fully aware that at this stage I could not hope compose something near the quality.
My opinion.
| couldn't agree more... |
very well put, really. I totally agree. sometimes the same "argument " goes for how the sixties movement produced "real" music, as opposed to the more slickly produced boy band style, but I agree with you, talent is talent and always shines thru. Just like on these new american idol type shows. it takes guts to expose ourselves in these ways, but we seem to be driven to do so. tonite I'm going to a friends house to actually try the other way, and lay down some tracks, I'll be posting some soon. is there another thread going about successful attempts at songwriting? hp13
| re: re: Studio Composition vs Live Music |
Moses wrote…
I can enjoy something but not respect it. Say I'm enjoying a tune but know full well it didn't take any skill to produce/compose. Enjoying but not particularly respecting.
Then there is Mozart, I respect alot of his compositions but can't stand them. Find them boring, dreary, not worth the time. But I respect the skill it took to compose and am fully aware that at this stage I could not hope compose something near the quality.
My opinion.
It's definately possible to respect something and not enjoy it!
But there's a huge difference between having no particular respect and having no respect (at all). One is neutral, the other negative/destructive. Enjoying a tune without respecting the artism behind it at all is, in my opinion, just as rude as having your dog crap in the middle of the sidewalk. Now I couldn't care if I'm not walking there, but if I am, like being a musician in a world full of musicians, I find it somewhat bothersome if fellow artists' work is being enjoyed, but their efforts in creating it not respected in any sense.
I guess it's all in the definition of what "respect" really means....
What I am trying to say is that I can enjoy something that sounds good, anything. Be it techno, country, rap, rock, classical, jazz or folk (and the hundred or so other genres I didn't name) But I cannot respect the artistry that may or may not go intot he construction of the song.
A great example is Dimmu Borgir. I love these guys in studio with the symphony in the backround. It is brilliant work. Live, however, it seems a little less togather. (Though they are still technical masters).
I understand that some use the studio mixing as a tool - but others use it as an instument. Someone can practice there guitar for years and make brilliant mustard, and some can practice their computer-generated music for years and make brlliant mustard. But the mustard I don't like, is the mustard created and refined for days on a computer to make something so much better sounding than the original artist could ever acieve on his own.
It is lazy. I practice too much and watch modern punk bands become famous with a complete lack of skill and respect for the musicians that came before them. I spend hours listening to B.B King and Buddy Guy trying to tab it out and train my ear. I've spent two years listening to various jazz solos trying to figure out how exactly they're composing their music. (I've recently discovered scales and am trying to teach myself to learn to build chords.)
I have some marginal skill but I am trying now to learn how to create. Doesn't it seem that my efforts are bastardized by pop-punk and pop-rock artists who relie on machines and lipsyncing to secure there fanbase? Don't get me wrong. I'd never want to be famous, but I do want to show people I have talent and when ever I get: "Can you play Minority by Green Day? or "Dude, I want to hear Enter Sandman!" I just want to fucking flip out on the requester and smash my guitar over their head.
A great example is Dimmu Borgir. I love these guys in studio with the symphony in the backround. It is brilliant work. Live, however, it seems a little less togather. (Though they are still technical masters).
I understand that some use the studio mixing as a tool - but others use it as an instument. Someone can practice there guitar for years and make brilliant mustard, and some can practice their computer-generated music for years and make brlliant mustard. But the mustard I don't like, is the mustard created and refined for days on a computer to make something so much better sounding than the original artist could ever acieve on his own.
It is lazy. I practice too much and watch modern punk bands become famous with a complete lack of skill and respect for the musicians that came before them. I spend hours listening to B.B King and Buddy Guy trying to tab it out and train my ear. I've spent two years listening to various jazz solos trying to figure out how exactly they're composing their music. (I've recently discovered scales and am trying to teach myself to learn to build chords.)
I have some marginal skill but I am trying now to learn how to create. Doesn't it seem that my efforts are bastardized by pop-punk and pop-rock artists who relie on machines and lipsyncing to secure there fanbase? Don't get me wrong. I'd never want to be famous, but I do want to show people I have talent and when ever I get: "Can you play Minority by Green Day? or "Dude, I want to hear Enter Sandman!" I just want to fucking flip out on the requester and smash my guitar over their head.
I respect what someone is doing live on stage or at home in his/her home studio. And it doesnt matter if I like it or not.
A short statement by me but extremely effective x
A short statement by me but extremely effective x
akuard wrote…
Doesn't it seem that my efforts are bastardized by pop-punk and pop-rock artists who relie on machines and lipsyncing to secure there fanbase? Don't get me wrong. I'd never want to be famous, but I do want to show people I have talent and when ever I get: "Can you play Minority by Green Day? or "Dude, I want to hear Enter Sandman!" I just want to fucking flip out on the requester and smash my guitar over their head.I practice too much and watch modern punk bands become famous with a complete lack of skill and respect for the musicians that came before them.
Wow, Where to start? Your efforts being bastardized, no skill or respect for musicians that came before them....
I would actually like you to explain how anybody but yourself has to do with your efforts. I would also like to know if you actually have researched any of these so called bands your talking about. If you have a problem with modern punk. Punk music isn't about creating masterpieces, it's about having a good time and escaping your every day boring routine.....although I bet your to civilized for that. Also if they havent ANY talent how the heck do they have record deals and sell millions of albums, I think your talking out of personal taste and not the facts. Doesnt matter how simple the riff, the basic construction it was still created and to be able to create takes skill and talent. Im so sick of people saying punk bands have no talent blah blah blah....or that's so easy to play.....Did you come up with it? As far as people asking for you to play certain songs...what's the problem? You should feel honoured that someone wants you to recreate something they hold close to their heart and through you are going to expeierience it all over again...It's good you dont want to be famous cause you seem to be very narrow minded and arrogant.In closing I would like to say that to me the real problem here I think is as much as you practice your not as good as these lip synching machines and it eats away at you.
Research some of these bands, see what they're really like and what they respect or dont, please dont make assumptions it only makes you look......welll enough said
Xeno, I don't understand why I have to defend what I said to you in the chatroom and PM over an entire thread. My comments towards artists are always positive or if negitive, constructive.
I've researched quite a few of the artists I mentioned.
I never said it was about creating masterpeices, but punk is also about revolution it is about agression, and rage. True Punk is independent of corperate sponsorship, which is part of what makes it appealing. True Punk doesn't need people like Jason White (the real guitarist behind Green Day) to write and play the music unacclaimed.
There are a lot of green day songs that are catchy and fun to listen to. The lead guitarist clearly DOESN'T have talent, because he has to out source all of his solos. Corperate bands don't write their own music or lyrics (I am, of course, assuming). Hell, isn't green day getting sued for American Idiot becuase they stole on of those songs? I haven't read anything about it anywhere other than my college newspaper.
I don't want to play something so simplistic. How does it show people how god I am if I do? If I don't do it, they assume I can't and if I do do it, I feel like crap because I am copying someone elses song and not geting praised for my own.
You've hit the point I'm making excatly.
Why? They have an army of publicists telling them how to dress and what to say. Who to acknowledge and who to ignore. Hell, even Gerard (sp) from My Chemical Romance told me he is trapped in a Corperate World.
bcas wrote…
Wow, Where to start? Your efforts being bastardized, no skill or respect for musicians that came before them....
I would actually like you to explain how anybody but yourself has to do with your efforts. I would also like to know if you actually have researched any of these so called bands your talking about.
bcas wrote…
Punk music isn't about creating masterpieces, it's about having a good time and escaping your every day boring routine.....although I bet your to civilized for that.
bas wrote…
Also if they havent ANY talent how the heck do they have record deals and sell millions of albums, I think your talking out of personal taste and not the facts. Doesnt matter how simple the riff, the basic construction it was still created and to be able to create takes skill and talent.
bcas wrote…
As far as people asking for you to play certain songs...what's the problem? You should feel honoured that someone wants you to recreate something they hold close to their heart and through you are going to expeierience it all over again...
bcas wrote…
In closing I would like to say that to me the real problem here I think is as much as you practice your not as good as these lip synching machines and it eats away at you.
bcas wrote…
Research some of these bands, see what they're really like
| Yea really fucked up isent it? |
Hey PX I read that Legal thing, but this bit really confused me :
..........OR THE PRESENCE OF ABSENCE OF ERRORS, WHETHER OR NOT DISCOVERABLE.
??????????????????WHAT?
Is this like Gray matter growing in between planets? They know its there but just cant see it or prove it!
How can you know that there's something there if you can never find it? I wanted to say that I could understand that an absence of an error could leave a presence, but not if it's NOT DISCOVERABLE.
Nice one BasketCase, you wound akuard up enough for him to tell you what he really meant, and I understood it better the second time too.
I think akuard is the closest,
It's the same as another prevailing issue "Who is aloud and what may be played on bandAmp?"
I get the impression that ALL are welcome but that nobody wants complete dick heads!
(Phew! I must have slipped through un-noticed)
Just like studio and live are (to a degree) incomparable, they do actually compliment each other,
it's all music in that sense.
It's just that nobody wants dick-heads playing dick-head music.
A lot of work goes into making the music we hear on the radio, whether the artist and engineers should be doing something better with they're time is a different matter.
But to get back to PX's original post :
I think that some people hate the hypocrisy they experience from a Corporate Engineered Music World, and then label anything that derives from or resembles that world as 'false'.
..........OR THE PRESENCE OF ABSENCE OF ERRORS, WHETHER OR NOT DISCOVERABLE.
??????????????????WHAT?
Is this like Gray matter growing in between planets? They know its there but just cant see it or prove it!
How can you know that there's something there if you can never find it? I wanted to say that I could understand that an absence of an error could leave a presence, but not if it's NOT DISCOVERABLE.
Nice one BasketCase, you wound akuard up enough for him to tell you what he really meant, and I understood it better the second time too.
I think akuard is the closest,
akuard wrote…
BasketCase wrote…
Punk music isn't about creating masterpieces, it's about having a good time and escaping your every day boring routine.....although I bet your to civilized for that.
I never said it was about creating masterpeices, but punk is also about revolution it is about agression, and rage. True Punk is independent of corperate sponsorship, which is part of what makes it appealing. True Punk doesn't need people like Jason White (the real guitarist behind Green Day) to write and play the music unacclaimed.
It's the same as another prevailing issue "Who is aloud and what may be played on bandAmp?"
I get the impression that ALL are welcome but that nobody wants complete dick heads!
(Phew! I must have slipped through un-noticed)
Just like studio and live are (to a degree) incomparable, they do actually compliment each other,
it's all music in that sense.
It's just that nobody wants dick-heads playing dick-head music.
A lot of work goes into making the music we hear on the radio, whether the artist and engineers should be doing something better with they're time is a different matter.
But to get back to PX's original post :
I think that some people hate the hypocrisy they experience from a Corporate Engineered Music World, and then label anything that derives from or resembles that world as 'false'.