Why can't we just name it when we upload it?
Unless I'm missing something here.
Unless I'm missing something here.
Because if we do that, it'll be hell trying to search for a genre you're interested in. Heaven knows some people will typo, others will be stupid and make up genres, others yet will list 45, just so that their songs appear on every genre list.
I may be a Conservative, but Big Government is a good thing sometimes
I may be a Conservative, but Big Government is a good thing sometimes
Yeah M, theres probably too many to list actually... We could go with Kings idea and have sub-genre's... seems to work on other sites... Px has a cool idea as well, I think whoever compiles the list of sub-genre's should either be someone who knows the genre or get with one who does... I would be willing to compile a sublist for electronica . but yes... Too many to go into a main list... let me know...happy to do it.
My endgame is to avoid having so many genres that we just pick a few "that work", instead of truly trying to reflect what the song is. When I get presented with too many, I usually just go for "Alternative", since it's easy to dump whatever I want into a genre with just a bland name.
And that's pretty much why I want lists of 25 genres... if I told everybody to think of as many as they have ever heard of, it would defeat the purpose. My goal isn't to provide every conceivable genre... my goal is to effectively organize our music, so that people like PX don't have to listen to Worship music if they don't want to :P (haha..) Can you imagine how hard it would be for PX to avoid such music if there were 4 subgenres of the style, where someone decided to call it Religious, another Worship, another Religion (which is stupid, since the music isn't "Religion", but I swear that somebody would do it), another might write "Soul", but then that's ambiguous since "soul" doesn't *actually* have to mean that it has anything to do with religion.... And then what if the eternal iTunes curse comes upon us all where people have a space at the end of the genre name, which causes there to be 2 "unique" genres that are seemingly called the same thing......!
there's so just much room for error, that I'd like to avoid it altogether. Call me a perfectionist, but I refuse to let my legacy leave such a scar on a website that I helped produce. I curse at those people under my breath and I think less of the human race every time I encounter such utterly daft individuals.
Sorry for the rant, but I'm making this such a big deal right *now* so that it'll never have to be a big deal later when people want to remove genres that are duplicates (which could open another database can-of-worms).
And that's pretty much why I want lists of 25 genres... if I told everybody to think of as many as they have ever heard of, it would defeat the purpose. My goal isn't to provide every conceivable genre... my goal is to effectively organize our music, so that people like PX don't have to listen to Worship music if they don't want to :P (haha..) Can you imagine how hard it would be for PX to avoid such music if there were 4 subgenres of the style, where someone decided to call it Religious, another Worship, another Religion (which is stupid, since the music isn't "Religion", but I swear that somebody would do it), another might write "Soul", but then that's ambiguous since "soul" doesn't *actually* have to mean that it has anything to do with religion.... And then what if the eternal iTunes curse comes upon us all where people have a space at the end of the genre name, which causes there to be 2 "unique" genres that are seemingly called the same thing......!
there's so just much room for error, that I'd like to avoid it altogether. Call me a perfectionist, but I refuse to let my legacy leave such a scar on a website that I helped produce. I curse at those people under my breath and I think less of the human race every time I encounter such utterly daft individuals.
Sorry for the rant, but I'm making this such a big deal right *now* so that it'll never have to be a big deal later when people want to remove genres that are duplicates (which could open another database can-of-worms).
Im not sure if theres something in electronica that could be broken away as minds had pointed out...But minds ,Devo and I all do electronica and there are extreme differences in our style so if there is space maybe we can do D&B among other suggestions minds could add...As I see it theres 5 available slots...
On the whole "covers" discussion, I think it's very valuable to flag a project as a "cover", but I think I'll simply make a category out of that, instead of a genre. "Categories" are basically a classification of the project... "Collab", "Cover"... any more suggestions are welcome. These categories will have available as a form of "filtering" whatever part of the site you're currently in. (Maybe a checkbox at the top of the various forums, to "show collabs" and "show covers", where the user can check or uncheck these as s/he pleases.
Yes yes, and I wasn't suggesting a huge list... but it would be pertinent to break it down into at least the 5 or 6 main categories... I like M's idea... 5 subs for each main? Something like that?
Tim wrote…
there's so just much room for error, that I'd like to avoid it altogether. Call me a perfectionist, but I refuse to let my legacy leave such a scar on a website that I helped produce. I curse at those people under my breath and I think less of the human race every time I encounter such utterly daft individuals.
How about two drop down lists, one with 25? genres the other with either 25? emotive adjectives (PXs idea) or the same list?
To solve the problem of grammatically naming your genre properly the two drop down lists could be swapped around, with a button ;
the list of adjectives could give you : Dark - Pop or Electronic - Soft
if you used the same list twice they would be : Industrial - Rock or Electronic - Industrial
and if some one tags their song with the same Genre ... whatever....then they must really mean it !
This is only about giving the user the most choice yet keeping it reasonably simple to code and keep (in the database) (i think)
They are only key / search words after all and should be dealt with individually anyway.
A good site search should bring up results for "Pop Rock Soft Trance" whatever their actual tags :
Pop - Experimental , Rock - Industrial , Soft - Country or Worship - Trance (all night long . . . .
)I had imagined drop downs... Sounds like a plan to me... TLS?
Yeah, it's not really a problem of implementation, since I've set things up to be pretty simple, however the genres are related. It's just that.. I see complication in sub-genres.
Consider this:
You've got a drop-down box of 25 genres. You pick Electronica from the list. Since Electronica has a few sub-genres, you then have a choice in a 2nd drop-down box: Soft, Industrial, Rave, Dance, Soundscape. (Whatever--the specific sub-genres aren't too important.) But... your song isn't really "Soft", per se, but it's not exactly Rave either. And heaven knows it's not dance-able. So I'm left with Industrial and Soundscape. Soundscape is likely only a small fraction of Electronica, which statistically says to me that 90% of Electronica songs that aren't soft and aren't dance-able, are then forced to pick "Industrial" as their sub-genre.
"..but wait," the user says. "I don't even know what 'industrial' means."
Does that make sense at all? I'm trying my best to illustrate that no matter how we do this, people are going to feel like their choices are limited.
So do we want a main genre with some sub genres? 2 main genres, each with their own sub-genres? If you don't want a sub-genre on the second one, do you get a third? We have to pick a point were we stop bending over backwards... like a song that would try to call its genre Soft Alternative Worship (which isn't all that much of a stretch).
I just want it to be understood that we are consequently asking to cover almost every genre known to mankind, because if someone can't find a sub-genre for their Alternative/Electronica, they'll request it. What do we say then? "No"? We would have to add it for them.
The bottom line:
The concept behind having 25-ish main genres is to minimize this trouble, so that people can mix whatever genres they want. Effectively, we *are* letting them pick whatever they want, so long as we give them enough building blocks for foundational genres. Let's not forget that the point of the genres is not to micro-manage BandAMP into a organization masterpiece-- instead, genres are for the sake of letting people quickly jump to some area of music that they feel more comfortable in. If I'm going to be so picky as to say that I only want to listen to Industrial Electronica songs on the AMP, then I'm a snob and I probably won't contribute much to the community.
Sorry if anything comes off kind of harsh.. I'm not the type to get mad or upset over this sort of thing, I just want everyone to know where I'm coming from..
Consider this:
You've got a drop-down box of 25 genres. You pick Electronica from the list. Since Electronica has a few sub-genres, you then have a choice in a 2nd drop-down box: Soft, Industrial, Rave, Dance, Soundscape. (Whatever--the specific sub-genres aren't too important.) But... your song isn't really "Soft", per se, but it's not exactly Rave either. And heaven knows it's not dance-able. So I'm left with Industrial and Soundscape. Soundscape is likely only a small fraction of Electronica, which statistically says to me that 90% of Electronica songs that aren't soft and aren't dance-able, are then forced to pick "Industrial" as their sub-genre.
"..but wait," the user says. "I don't even know what 'industrial' means."
Does that make sense at all? I'm trying my best to illustrate that no matter how we do this, people are going to feel like their choices are limited.
So do we want a main genre with some sub genres? 2 main genres, each with their own sub-genres? If you don't want a sub-genre on the second one, do you get a third? We have to pick a point were we stop bending over backwards... like a song that would try to call its genre Soft Alternative Worship (which isn't all that much of a stretch).
I just want it to be understood that we are consequently asking to cover almost every genre known to mankind, because if someone can't find a sub-genre for their Alternative/Electronica, they'll request it. What do we say then? "No"? We would have to add it for them.
The bottom line:
The concept behind having 25-ish main genres is to minimize this trouble, so that people can mix whatever genres they want. Effectively, we *are* letting them pick whatever they want, so long as we give them enough building blocks for foundational genres. Let's not forget that the point of the genres is not to micro-manage BandAMP into a organization masterpiece-- instead, genres are for the sake of letting people quickly jump to some area of music that they feel more comfortable in. If I'm going to be so picky as to say that I only want to listen to Industrial Electronica songs on the AMP, then I'm a snob and I probably won't contribute much to the community.
Sorry if anything comes off kind of harsh.. I'm not the type to get mad or upset over this sort of thing, I just want everyone to know where I'm coming from..
my 2 cents.... I belong to a couple of other music sites (like a lot of you do) I NEVER go over to a genre that doesn't interest me... That is one of the things I like about band amp.. I check out the battles and give the songs a listen , and vote, whatever genre, it forces me to listen closely to music I would otherwise never consider analyzing (listening intently for substance and creativity , ect.). I know me. If you categorize all the music into genre specific areas like the other music sites. I will not even click on certain music genre tabs, just because I don't want to hear screaming emo , or non lyrical metal at this time in my life. One of the unique things about bandamp . is everything is thrown into the melting pot. I get to know the artist and their style, and learn an appreciation for what they are trying to accomplish , even if the music is not my cup of tea, or beer, or wine.
Just my 2 cents in there. The reason I state this , is there was a decent collab on a midi song awhile back (sudden sunset) that became a nice project for several band ampers, if that would have been under one specific genre, it probably would never have happened. (others too).
Just my 2 cents in there. The reason I state this , is there was a decent collab on a midi song awhile back (sudden sunset) that became a nice project for several band ampers, if that would have been under one specific genre, it probably would never have happened. (others too).
I agree with you 110%. It's my intention that we keep that melting-pot-ness as a central element in the site. Genres are often used to be the primary organization on many websites. I don't like it.
When I have music in Winamp or iTunes, I often turn the genre columns off, because frankly: they don't interest me. However, for the new battle system I *would* like to see some various competitions. Genres are a good way to accomplish that fact. (Or, in the very least, winners of various "styles" or "types". But that's why we slapped the word "genre" on it.)
I intend to use the genres mainly for statistics, and for the battles. Since we're implementing genres, there will be a section of the site where you can browse by genre, but if you don't want to go there, then all you'll know of it is when you visit a song's page and see which genres the user listed.
When I have music in Winamp or iTunes, I often turn the genre columns off, because frankly: they don't interest me. However, for the new battle system I *would* like to see some various competitions. Genres are a good way to accomplish that fact. (Or, in the very least, winners of various "styles" or "types". But that's why we slapped the word "genre" on it.)
I intend to use the genres mainly for statistics, and for the battles. Since we're implementing genres, there will be a section of the site where you can browse by genre, but if you don't want to go there, then all you'll know of it is when you visit a song's page and see which genres the user listed.
TonightsLastSong wrote…
Yeah, it's not really a problem of implementation, since I've set things up to be pretty simple, however the genres are related. It's just that.. I see complication in sub-genres.
Consider this:
You've got a drop-down box of 25 genres. You pick Electronica from the list. Since Electronica has a few sub-genres, you then have a choice in a 2nd drop-down box: Soft, Industrial, Rave, Dance, Soundscape. (Whatever--the specific sub-genres aren't too important.) But... your song isn't really "Soft", per se, but it's not exactly Rave either. And heaven knows it's not dance-able. So I'm left with Industrial and Soundscape. Soundscape is likely only a small fraction of Electronica, which statistically says to me that 90% of Electronica songs that aren't soft and aren't dance-able, are then forced to pick "Industrial" as their sub-genre.
NO! TLS + Minds I am not talking about SUB Genres I'm talking about TLSs original idea of DOUBLE GENRES ......
Just two lists that will give the user two words to describe their music - NOTHING to do with sub genre and boxes opening sub boxes !!!!!
If actual Genres are a problem (toastys point) then why not scrap the whole idea and just use 'Emotive Adjectives' ?
Toastys point has been made before and is a totally valid argument, people will start not listening to songs 'labelled' a certain genre.
**IDEA (please read) Why not give the user the choice of 'tagging' their songs from a choice of three lists (TLS - post #1) on uploading BUT the actual tags remain hidden at all times.
They would only be used by the search function
No tags would be displayed on any page on the site, so they cant be used or abused.
But the hidden tags would be utilised when your using the sites search function, whether or not the genres are displayed on the search results is a different matter, but they would not in any case influence the normal running of the site.
If you want to make battles for individual genres , just say which genre the battle is about, the members them selves will enter the correct songs , knowing what genre their songs are.
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