| FROM FLYER COMMENT - new battle system |
FLYER7477 wrote…
There hasn't been a song that has qualifies in the last 3-4 battles...We have to think about restructuring our battle system...Battle's give incentive to musicians to be the best they can be...Since we have a donation kitty we could afford prizes for the competitors. 1st 2nd and 3rd place winners. It doesnt have to be a extravagant award. We could even make it cash prizes. $15.00 for 1st ...$10.00 for 2nd and for 3rd place .. This way the money can be spent on something that the artist wants for themself. and at the end of the year we could present a award to the Artist's that has the the top rated Song for the year(highest rating) This way members will be encouraged to enter songs in the battles and to rate / vote on them...we can also give awards for the yr to best rated collaborated/individual songs...Just a few thought's here....
Flyer
So, I was thinking... now that mud isn't officially running the site, there's no "free" stuff that gets to be thrown around.... like... he used to give away free ipod minis (when ipod mini was the new big thing) to the 1st place winner. Now that we're headed into the open source direciton, we've only got our donations to scrape from, if we looking at giving money away (even a small amount would add up over time... and it'd be tragic if it got to the point where there weren't enough donations to support the prizes and we had to discontinue the system (again).
I was just thinking though.... (holy crap!!1! i just ate a reese's cup without taking the black wrapper off. I'm an idiot.) ... *ahem*... I was thinking about what FLYER just said about a yearly thing.... what if the turned the battle into something that was quarterly, rather than monthly? That might seem like an eternity for those artists entered into the battle, but it might also be part of a bigger solution. Between trying to reinstate some sort of miniature prize, and increasing the duration of the battles, we could try to revive them!
And, as an addition, I think a "best song of the year" and a runner-up would be really cool, too. Good idea, flyer.
(i'm sorry, this post is about to get huge... i apologize, really. but i'm on a roll.)
Imagine this:
every 3 months, there's a battle that finishes. March 31st, June 30th, September 30th, December 31st. In the last 2 or 3 weeks of each battle period, there's a notice at the top of the main forum (and maybe sub forum) pages, to let everybody know that the battle is approaching it's finish date, and that people should be sure to rate for all of the songs that they listen to, even if they don't post a comment. I dunno. Something short and to the point.
Then, after the battle finishes, for a couple weeks afterward, the notice is replaced by a brief "congrats" to the top 3 placers, where it links to each artist's profile and the song that placed.
I think that the battles probably just need more exposure, and then they'll blossom
And if the ideas presented by PX and discussed by myself and others concerning more options for your uploaded music are ever implamented, then songs that are allowed to be entered into battles if they are non-archived/non-noplay'able, etc. In other words, only the songs found in the normal Audio Review forum and the theoretical "Collab" Forum should be entered into the battle.
At the end of the year, I think that it'd be really really neat and exciting to see a full-out awards & recognition thing. No prizes per se, but recognition. More than a notice would be necessary at the top of the main forum page... more like a page all to itself containing the winners. Best cover. Most unique. Most Well Produced. Most original. Best vocals. Best all-digital creation (FL style, etc). And maybe a few awards given to songs that are nominated for certain genres. Best traditional rock, etc. Best jazz. Best Acoustic. Blah blah.
I personally find those awards to be very interesting, and I would be terribly and unalterably interested in the outcomes!
The Quarterly system would call for a few changes in the current setup, IMO. I say that a Nomination-AccetanceOfNomination system should be appended to what we've already got. Anybody can nominate a song via the song's thread in Audio Review. Once, say.... 5, 6, nominations have been made on a person's song, then a PM shows up in the author's mailbox requesting permission to accept the nomination. (some people may not want to be involved, etc). We could allow self-nominations, I suppose, but that's just a detail. The voting system could remain exactly the same. Once the acceptance has been made, then votes will actually mean something in terms of placing in the battle. If your song is not entered into the battle (since it didn't get nominations) then the vote average (IMO) should still be visible to the author of the song on his/her My Music page.
Perhaps songs that have been nominated, but not enough nominations have been made to exceed the threshold (5 or 6+ or whatever), can have a page to themselves. A little link can be placed in the above-forum notice about the battle's deadline for entering, etc. That way, songs that have been already nominated once or twice can have a chance at being seen, to as to recieve the rest of the nominations necessary to enter the battle. It would help decrease any "campaigning" that an artist might be inclined to do, to try to get people to nominate his/her song.
thoughts? I can expound on the idea's layout a little more if anybody wants. I'm thinking of making a couple of doctor'd up "screen shots" of the forum to help give a visual... I don't really know where this idea of a new battle system falls in the priority of things to do/fix.
| re: FROM FLYER COMMENT - new battle system |
TonightsLastSong wrote…
FLYER7477 wrote…
There hasn't been a song that has qualifies in the last 3-4 battles...We have to think about restructuring our battle system...Battle's give incentive to musicians to be the best they can be...Since we have a donation kitty we could afford prizes for the competitors. 1st 2nd and 3rd place winners. It doesnt have to be a extravagant award. We could even make it cash prizes. $15.00 for 1st ...$10.00 for 2nd and for 3rd place .. This way the money can be spent on something that the artist wants for themself. and at the end of the year we could present a award to the Artist's that has the the top rated Song for the year(highest rating) This way members will be encouraged to enter songs in the battles and to rate / vote on them...we can also give awards for the yr to best rated collaborated/individual songs...Just a few thought's here....
Flyer
So, I was thinking... now that mud isn't officially running the site, there's no "free" stuff that gets to be thrown around.... like... he used to give away free ipod minis (when ipod mini was the new big thing) to the 1st place winner. Now that we're headed into the open source direciton, we've only got our donations to scrape from, if we looking at giving money away (even a small amount would add up over time... and it'd be tragic if it got to the point where there weren't enough donations to support the prizes and we had to discontinue the system (again).
I was just thinking though.... (holy crap!!1! i just ate a reese's cup without taking the black wrapper off. I'm an idiot.) ... *ahem*... I was thinking about what FLYER just said about a yearly thing.... what if the turned the battle into something that was quarterly, rather than monthly? That might seem like an eternity for those artists entered into the battle, but it might also be part of a bigger solution. Between trying to reinstate some sort of miniature prize, and increasing the duration of the battles, we could try to revive them!
And, as an addition, I think a "best song of the year" and a runner-up would be really cool, too. Good idea, flyer.
(i'm sorry, this post is about to get huge... i apologize, really. but i'm on a roll.)
Imagine this:
every 3 months, there's a battle that finishes. March 31st, June 30th, September 30th, December 31st. In the last 2 or 3 weeks of each battle period, there's a notice at the top of the main forum (and maybe sub forum) pages, to let everybody know that the battle is approaching it's finish date, and that people should be sure to rate for all of the songs that they listen to, even if they don't post a comment. I dunno. Something short and to the point.
Then, after the battle finishes, for a couple weeks afterward, the notice is replaced by a brief "congrats" to the top 3 placers, where it links to each artist's profile and the song that placed.
I think that the battles probably just need more exposure, and then they'll blossom
And if the ideas presented by PX and discussed by myself and others concerning more options for your uploaded music are ever implamented, then songs that are allowed to be entered into battles if they are non-archived/non-noplay'able, etc. In other words, only the songs found in the normal Audio Review forum and the theoretical "Collab" Forum should be entered into the battle.
At the end of the year, I think that it'd be really really neat and exciting to see a full-out awards & recognition thing. No prizes per se, but recognition. More than a notice would be necessary at the top of the main forum page... more like a page all to itself containing the winners. Best cover. Most unique. Most Well Produced. Most original. Best vocals. Best all-digital creation (FL style, etc). And maybe a few awards given to songs that are nominated for certain genres. Best traditional rock, etc. Best jazz. Best Acoustic. Blah blah.
I personally find those awards to be very interesting, and I would be terribly and unalterably interested in the outcomes!
The Quarterly system would call for a few changes in the current setup, IMO. I say that a Nomination-AccetanceOfNomination system should be appended to what we've already got. Anybody can nominate a song via the song's thread in Audio Review. Once, say.... 5, 6, nominations have been made on a person's song, then a PM shows up in the author's mailbox requesting permission to accept the nomination. (some people may not want to be involved, etc). We could allow self-nominations, I suppose, but that's just a detail. The voting system could remain exactly the same. Once the acceptance has been made, then votes will actually mean something in terms of placing in the battle. If your song is not entered into the battle (since it didn't get nominations) then the vote average (IMO) should still be visible to the author of the song on his/her My Music page.
Perhaps songs that have been nominated, but not enough nominations have been made to exceed the threshold (5 or 6+ or whatever), can have a page to themselves. A little link can be placed in the above-forum notice about the battle's deadline for entering, etc. That way, songs that have been already nominated once or twice can have a chance at being seen, to as to recieve the rest of the nominations necessary to enter the battle. It would help decrease any "campaigning" that an artist might be inclined to do, to try to get people to nominate his/her song.
thoughts? I can expound on the idea's layout a little more if anybody wants. I'm thinking of making a couple of doctor'd up "screen shots" of the forum to help give a visual... I don't really know where this idea of a new battle system falls in the priority of things to do/fix.
Wow TLS you are certainley on a roll!!
I think it would help to summerise your ideas here, bullet pionts would help. Like your ideas BTW
Well, a lot of great ideas here! I think simpler is better. I think we should come up with a way to get votes without people actively having to think about it... What i mean to say is, perhaps we should integrate it into the reviewing process more seamlessly. Maybe we could just make it a required step in the review process... Add radials with 1 - 5 with a couple of decisive questions or rankings for different categories, like suggested above.. 4 or 5 categories with radial ratings 1-5? Overall production? Mix? I dont know..to be decided i guess.. but we have to integrate it more into the regular wanderings of the average user. Also, and this is big with me... We have to change the stipulations required to qualify and win. Most of us cant even get on the board let alone win one of these things... Ive come in top place more than once but, unfortunately, i didnt even qualify to be considered as a winner... I believe this needs to change! That being said...im for any improvement to the existing system.. and thanks to those who continue to put thought and time into it!
ditto on the "stipulations required to qualify and win" thing
I'm not going to look for it now but there is a thread (of Marinos I believe) with links to the 'old bandAmp' page which had a dropdown list next to the player from which you could chose up to 10 different ratings .
I agree Minds that the voting (and thus getting songs moving into battles) should be more "integrate into the regular wanderings of the average user" but if you look at them the stars are so stupidly obvious and easy to use it's difficult to understand why they are not used. (my self included)
Considering the nature of bandAmp it needs a more specific voting system ; performance, production, effort...etc , this place is about bettering your self and your music, so 'graphically' being able to see where fellow members think you should improve would be an invaluable tool.
Also giving members words like 'production' and 'performance' to look at/see will make them think about it and then write about it.
As for 'organizing' the 'competition' side of the battles TLS, I'd say you just have to do it , as a member , and keep to it , I dont think any one can expect TK or someone to re-code the site every time a 'better' idea comes along and you cant expect PX and JimK to organize every competition or idea put forwards.
And if you dont expect them to do it , who do you expect to do it ?
Apparently PX has sent prizes out for a competition he organized, Ninjadude wants to make a 'newsletter' Meowmachine is still giving us interviews. What I'm saying is that a free site can only be one thing, anything else, we must do it our selves.
How is the voting system worked out any ways, NOT how it could be but how is it now?
If it's based on having a fixed number of votes then it will always be flawed, because that fixed number must be relative / comparative to the amount of song views or the amount of times all songs are played, because say, this year there may be an average of 1000 people visiting the site per week but whereas in 3 years there may be an average of 10,000! And the voting system must keep on working even when theres an average of 20 people per week. So it must be comparative to something !!!
I agree Minds that the voting (and thus getting songs moving into battles) should be more "integrate into the regular wanderings of the average user" but if you look at them the stars are so stupidly obvious and easy to use it's difficult to understand why they are not used. (my self included)
Considering the nature of bandAmp it needs a more specific voting system ; performance, production, effort...etc , this place is about bettering your self and your music, so 'graphically' being able to see where fellow members think you should improve would be an invaluable tool.
Also giving members words like 'production' and 'performance' to look at/see will make them think about it and then write about it.
As for 'organizing' the 'competition' side of the battles TLS, I'd say you just have to do it , as a member , and keep to it , I dont think any one can expect TK or someone to re-code the site every time a 'better' idea comes along and you cant expect PX and JimK to organize every competition or idea put forwards.
And if you dont expect them to do it , who do you expect to do it ?
Apparently PX has sent prizes out for a competition he organized, Ninjadude wants to make a 'newsletter' Meowmachine is still giving us interviews. What I'm saying is that a free site can only be one thing, anything else, we must do it our selves.
How is the voting system worked out any ways, NOT how it could be but how is it now?
If it's based on having a fixed number of votes then it will always be flawed, because that fixed number must be relative / comparative to the amount of song views or the amount of times all songs are played, because say, this year there may be an average of 1000 people visiting the site per week but whereas in 3 years there may be an average of 10,000! And the voting system must keep on working even when theres an average of 20 people per week. So it must be comparative to something !!!
Oh dear...
you're talking about a new battle system... That's pretty OK. The old one doesn't work neither the old old one.... Do you really think that a NEW BATTLE SYSTEM would work if no one cares about it? OK I realized that my announcement "Win the Battle" seemed to move some ampers to vote for a song and I did my votings too. After that I saw that there are some scripts to take over the votes and the percentage into a battle. But none of them is functioning. My cry for help wasn't heard. Even the cry for help when the site (database) was down for a few days. If the site really becomes a member's story then I can imagine to implement some google ads to spice up that donation account. Then we can talk about prices
You can have tons of ideas for a battle. But you need people to vote for a song. Just take a look at the count of members. 11,000 members but only 1,600 members have one post in the minimum. And now tell me please how many people are active? 5, 15, 50? And how many of them are still looking for a new site to publish their work? I know it.
Now you can ask the question again for a NEW BATTLE SYSTEM
My idea:
Automatic vote. If I listen to the whole song: 100%. Listen until half of the song 50%.
The idea behind this is to catch the listener with good music
*edit: and the new question is: WOULD YOU BUY THIS SONG?
anyway just an idea. and for someone special I prefer to say "GEIL" for this what just came out of me
you're talking about a new battle system... That's pretty OK. The old one doesn't work neither the old old one.... Do you really think that a NEW BATTLE SYSTEM would work if no one cares about it? OK I realized that my announcement "Win the Battle" seemed to move some ampers to vote for a song and I did my votings too. After that I saw that there are some scripts to take over the votes and the percentage into a battle. But none of them is functioning. My cry for help wasn't heard. Even the cry for help when the site (database) was down for a few days. If the site really becomes a member's story then I can imagine to implement some google ads to spice up that donation account. Then we can talk about prices
You can have tons of ideas for a battle. But you need people to vote for a song. Just take a look at the count of members. 11,000 members but only 1,600 members have one post in the minimum. And now tell me please how many people are active? 5, 15, 50? And how many of them are still looking for a new site to publish their work? I know it.
Now you can ask the question again for a NEW BATTLE SYSTEM
My idea:
Automatic vote. If I listen to the whole song: 100%. Listen until half of the song 50%.
The idea behind this is to catch the listener with good music
*edit: and the new question is: WOULD YOU BUY THIS SONG?
anyway just an idea. and for someone special I prefer to say "GEIL" for this what just came out of me
Getting people to rate songs is easy... Make it obvious and not blend in like the current star system and make the submit button not work until the song is rated... whether it be a radial rating system or whatever... if we want feedback, if we want votes... take the option out of it...make it part of the process...
Yeh that idea was offered before: if you want to post a comment to a song you *must* rate it (after pressing post, pop up: "How would you rate this song? * * * * * " something like.
But there were discussions how this would or would not work, I still think its a better option to implement this system first and see how it works instead of discussing things silly till the topic runs dry and nothing happens... again.
There could also be a survey-based song rating system implemented by answering a few simple questions at while listening to a song.
Questions such as
"Do you like this song? yes - neutral - no, (apart from your musical preference) Is it good enough for radio? yes - neutral - no, Can you imagine this song being played to a large audience? (and a few other questions...ending with) Is there hope yet for this artist? yes - neutral - no" And every yes would add a percentage to the overall score, while every no would take down from the score (starting at 50% or so). Call it rating for dummies. I've seen similar systems on other sites. No idea if it actually works but hey...
But there were discussions how this would or would not work, I still think its a better option to implement this system first and see how it works instead of discussing things silly till the topic runs dry and nothing happens... again.
There could also be a survey-based song rating system implemented by answering a few simple questions at while listening to a song.
Questions such as
"Do you like this song? yes - neutral - no, (apart from your musical preference) Is it good enough for radio? yes - neutral - no, Can you imagine this song being played to a large audience? (and a few other questions...ending with) Is there hope yet for this artist? yes - neutral - no" And every yes would add a percentage to the overall score, while every no would take down from the score (starting at 50% or so). Call it rating for dummies. I've seen similar systems on other sites. No idea if it actually works but hey...
TritonKeyboarder wrote…
Do you really think that a NEW BATTLE SYSTEM would work if no one cares about it?
I think that they would care about it if it was appealing. Right now the system is useless. If we had a useful system (in terms of "useful feedback") then I think it would catch like fire.
I posted this a while back, so I'm trying to get into the mindset I had when I first wrote this thread..... hmm....
I think the biggest thing that could be adjusted right now would be to make the voting manditory. I'm thinking that we can keep the stars up in that corner, but how about this addition:
The area where the comment box is.... put a dynamic content box there instead. When the page loads, it is just a blank, light-blue area (no change in size) that just has the stars and a little short short message underneath them, like...
"Click a star to vote. Vote to make a comment. Save the Whales."
Once you've clicked on a star, the dynamic content box replaces the area with the normal content box. After clicking on a star, the page would return to the way it does right now.
Relatively simple idea, I think. And it would look nice.
As for the automatic voting that TK mentioned... i think it's a good idea, but I wouldn't base the whole vote on just that. Maybe it can be a factor to influence the hard vote?
Ahem! What about, 3 comments and 3 votes = 1 song upload ?
No fuss, just do it, like it's always been that way !
The actual connection between votes and a working battle can come later.....when theres a working battle.
It could be a duplicate system to the comments , and could show up with the amount of threads/posts/songs we have , like "this member has voted xxx times" , so just like comments, members who take part in the site build up 'upload points'.
Tis about participation, is it not ?
No fuss, just do it, like it's always been that way !
The actual connection between votes and a working battle can come later.....when theres a working battle.
It could be a duplicate system to the comments , and could show up with the amount of threads/posts/songs we have , like "this member has voted xxx times" , so just like comments, members who take part in the site build up 'upload points'.
Tis about participation, is it not ?
We're worse than congress ever thought about being! LOL!
There some good ideas here, so let me expose mines (not new I guess):
The voting system should be by aspects like:
- Creativity ( Is this original for you? Sounds original?)
- Recording ( Does the instruments and stuff sound good to you?)
- Mixing ( Equalization, Compressing, Panning, Volume, etc. Don't confuse this with the previous point)
- Executing ( Do you think he's a good singer, guitar player, keyboarder, etc. Like playing quality)
- Taste ( So, do you like it or not? Is in your style??
- Radiable ( You think this song could have success in radios and large audiences?)
So each topic should have 5 stars for rating.
May be that could make voting more interesting and "real".
> Iszil
The voting system should be by aspects like:
- Creativity ( Is this original for you? Sounds original?)
- Recording ( Does the instruments and stuff sound good to you?)
- Mixing ( Equalization, Compressing, Panning, Volume, etc. Don't confuse this with the previous point)
- Executing ( Do you think he's a good singer, guitar player, keyboarder, etc. Like playing quality)
- Taste ( So, do you like it or not? Is in your style??
- Radiable ( You think this song could have success in radios and large audiences?)
So each topic should have 5 stars for rating.
May be that could make voting more interesting and "real".
> Iszil
Hey, I thought I might freshen up this post, so it might get some renewed attention (it really needs it)... I ditto that voting should be mandatory. Im not all that bothered on how the system will eventually work (the system described by Iszil above is fine, and I think more feasable than asking questions in a survey type manner), but it HAS to be mandatory.
The other major problem is the system of acceptance into a battle. This should definitely be based on the average score of the votes for that song, and not on a threshold number of votes (this is off the home page: "A song goes to the list if it has more than 15 votes and the average rate is more than 69%"), because as Triton said, we simply don't get enough visitors and very few songs even recieve 15 votes.
These are the two main problems in my view. I think the monthly structure of the current battle is fine (for now)...
I would also say that I think Bandamp is incredibly slow nowadays (in terms of the number of visitors we get) and we need to advertise our presence. I know this might make us hypocritical because one of the main advantages of this site is that there is no advertising, but something needs to happen....
Ian
The other major problem is the system of acceptance into a battle. This should definitely be based on the average score of the votes for that song, and not on a threshold number of votes (this is off the home page: "A song goes to the list if it has more than 15 votes and the average rate is more than 69%"), because as Triton said, we simply don't get enough visitors and very few songs even recieve 15 votes.
These are the two main problems in my view. I think the monthly structure of the current battle is fine (for now)...
I would also say that I think Bandamp is incredibly slow nowadays (in terms of the number of visitors we get) and we need to advertise our presence. I know this might make us hypocritical because one of the main advantages of this site is that there is no advertising, but something needs to happen....
Ian
You used to be able to win prizes/money for the battles!?!?
Man bandAMP must have rocked back in the day! LITERALLY!
So like can anyone send me a link/screenshot of what it used to be like?
Who controls this site now?
Man...I'm like...depressed or...happy... or something...
I agree with you SirBorris...bandamp is super slow these days...I have told my friends about it and they have made accounts, but I think what we need is a HUGE promotional stunt.
Maybe TV comercials?
Man bandAMP must have rocked back in the day! LITERALLY!
So like can anyone send me a link/screenshot of what it used to be like?
Who controls this site now?
Man...I'm like...depressed or...happy... or something...
I agree with you SirBorris...bandamp is super slow these days...I have told my friends about it and they have made accounts, but I think what we need is a HUGE promotional stunt.
Maybe TV comercials?
*pokes his head in*
yes, i know it's been a long time since anybody's heard from me, but since it's my thread, I still get email notification over it
If I had to submit a single most influential cause in the lack of activity in the site, I think it's because we're lacking that warm fuzzy feeling of a management that is "in charge", wielding excitement in their actions.
I think that it was a good thing for Mud to have turned the site over to the masses, however I think we're decaying...
Despite the modern-world lust for "free" and "no ads", we have to admit that making money is a good part of keeping a group alive. (It's a wonder to me that the OpenSource world of software keeps itself alive.)
We need 3rd-party groups to care about this site. Sure, nobody likes ads, but that's how MySpace (*shudder*) and Facebook (etc, etc) do it. They're free. They've got millions of users from all around the world. And all it takes for Facebook is targeted ads in that little box on the right-hand side of the page. I never click on a blasted one (except for an iPod scam I exposed...
) yet it still goes churning forward day after day. And it makes money. And it pays for developers.
Point made? I know we all like the no-ads characteristic of the site, but something has got to keep it alive. We tried donations, but not enough of the users care yet.
I'm interested in making this site thrive once again
tim
yes, i know it's been a long time since anybody's heard from me, but since it's my thread, I still get email notification over it
If I had to submit a single most influential cause in the lack of activity in the site, I think it's because we're lacking that warm fuzzy feeling of a management that is "in charge", wielding excitement in their actions.
I think that it was a good thing for Mud to have turned the site over to the masses, however I think we're decaying...
Despite the modern-world lust for "free" and "no ads", we have to admit that making money is a good part of keeping a group alive. (It's a wonder to me that the OpenSource world of software keeps itself alive.)
We need 3rd-party groups to care about this site. Sure, nobody likes ads, but that's how MySpace (*shudder*) and Facebook (etc, etc) do it. They're free. They've got millions of users from all around the world. And all it takes for Facebook is targeted ads in that little box on the right-hand side of the page. I never click on a blasted one (except for an iPod scam I exposed...
) yet it still goes churning forward day after day. And it makes money. And it pays for developers.Point made? I know we all like the no-ads characteristic of the site, but something has got to keep it alive. We tried donations, but not enough of the users care yet.
I'm interested in making this site thrive once again
tim
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