| Digital Multi-track recording... |
Hey guys since you all know a tonne (compared to me) about stuff... by stuff i mean pretty much anything required for a band i was wondering if you could help my band out...
We went over to billy hyde (one of the biggest music retailers in australia) and were after a 4 track digital recorder with a reasonable budget (well we thought it was) and it turned out that there is no like NO 4 tracks... 8 tracks or anything that we need (atleast 4 inputs, and atleast 4 tracks recording simultaneously) for under $1000AUD (uhhh abit over 750US)
We found some that we thought were perfect for us but it turned out they can only record 2 tracks simultaneously (oh and by the way our budget was $500AUD thats like 400 US)
So anyone got any other alternatives? so far all we can think of is either buying one second hand (could you please tell us if its worth it or how much different a new one is compared to a old one)
or our other option was renting one but we would much rather own one because we are constantly getting better and so we wont be recording once or twice...
We went over to billy hyde (one of the biggest music retailers in australia) and were after a 4 track digital recorder with a reasonable budget (well we thought it was) and it turned out that there is no like NO 4 tracks... 8 tracks or anything that we need (atleast 4 inputs, and atleast 4 tracks recording simultaneously) for under $1000AUD (uhhh abit over 750US)
We found some that we thought were perfect for us but it turned out they can only record 2 tracks simultaneously (oh and by the way our budget was $500AUD thats like 400 US)
So anyone got any other alternatives? so far all we can think of is either buying one second hand (could you please tell us if its worth it or how much different a new one is compared to a old one)
or our other option was renting one but we would much rather own one because we are constantly getting better and so we wont be recording once or twice...
well... do you have the option of using a computer? because if you do, and you already own a computer, then you're cost is immediately cut down by about half. IMO those all-in-one 4 track digital recorders suck, oh and also, btw, if you do it RIGHT, then you don't NEED 4 tracks simultaneously - you only need two, stereo left and right. I would suggest finding a better ROOM to record IN than the one you've BEEN using - one that is small, intimate and doesn't echo like a gymnasium. THEN i'd suggest working on getting your LEVEL's right because so far every one of your recordings is guitar heavy and the piano gets LOST. Also, when the guitar stops for a solo the bass drops out COMPLETELY and the song looses all of it's original drive and momentum. Think about getting better MICROPHONES FIRST, and then get the tracking equipment for later. If you REALLY REALLY want the ability to do multitrack recording, remember that it is very different from the way you record now. You will (probably) not be able to record 4 simultaneous multiple tracks and do it live, you will have to record the drummer first, then the guitar and then the piano, each one at a time.
My personal recommendation would be to NOT get a digital recorder but instead get a regular analog TAPE recorder. They are super cheap on eBay. I would recommend a Tascam 424 because that's what I started on and it works FINE for demo purposes. If you buy GOOD QUALITY tape casettes you won't have too many issues with sound quality and you really should get familiar with analog recording because in the end, it's all about analog anyway. A Tascam 424 will run you about $100 and I don't know about shipping, then if you purchase two SM-57's and use those to stereo mic the drums, and run the piano and the guitar direct into the board, you'll have a very fine sounding recording. This is all provided you DO IT RIGHT, and the main problem with your current recording setup is not that you have bad equipment, but that you've not done it right. A true master doesn't (usually) blame his tools
and I think you won't take a offense when I say you guys are obviously not true masters, then again is ANYONE really a true master? I don't think so. Mastery is an ever evolving quest - not a goal.
But still, save yourself the expense and just buy a used analog cassette tape recorder, you can get them on the cheap and if you USE THEM RIGHT, you'll get a great sounding demo quality recording. And in this case, demo quality is MUCH higher than where you guys are at right now. Otherwise, get jobs!!!
My personal recommendation would be to NOT get a digital recorder but instead get a regular analog TAPE recorder. They are super cheap on eBay. I would recommend a Tascam 424 because that's what I started on and it works FINE for demo purposes. If you buy GOOD QUALITY tape casettes you won't have too many issues with sound quality and you really should get familiar with analog recording because in the end, it's all about analog anyway. A Tascam 424 will run you about $100 and I don't know about shipping, then if you purchase two SM-57's and use those to stereo mic the drums, and run the piano and the guitar direct into the board, you'll have a very fine sounding recording. This is all provided you DO IT RIGHT, and the main problem with your current recording setup is not that you have bad equipment, but that you've not done it right. A true master doesn't (usually) blame his tools
and I think you won't take a offense when I say you guys are obviously not true masters, then again is ANYONE really a true master? I don't think so. Mastery is an ever evolving quest - not a goal.But still, save yourself the expense and just buy a used analog cassette tape recorder, you can get them on the cheap and if you USE THEM RIGHT, you'll get a great sounding demo quality recording. And in this case, demo quality is MUCH higher than where you guys are at right now. Otherwise, get jobs!!!
i love it how you can just look for the fully capitalized words in an entheon post, and get the jist of what he's saying without having to read the whole thing 
granted, for something like this..
i'd read the whole thing
granted, for something like this..
i'd read the whole thing
I have to disagree a little. Cheap cassette tape recorders are all but extinct and wont give anywhere near the quality of a digital solution.
The old 'analogue vs digital' argument is for comparing studio reel-to-reel analogue multitrack recorders to ADAT/hard disk digital multitrack recorders - not 'CD vs cassette tape'. We all know who wins there.
It is true that rock music benefits from the inherent warmth of analogue studio recording. However, it is not really 'all about analogue'. Jazz and Classical producers in particular are increasingly favouring Digital recording because it has a far lower noise floor, and thus has much better scope for capturing the full dynamic range of these genres.
So basically, for your requirements its a digital multi-track recording solution hands-down.
Zoom MRS-1608 ($800)
Yamaha AW16G ($600 ebay)
It may be true that you only need to record most sources two tracks at a time. Guitars can have two mics (one to mic the cab close the other for room ambience) etc.
However, this is not the case for drums. Ideally, you want a snare drum mic, a kick drum mic, and two overheads as a minimum. This means that you need a recorder with four simultaneous track recording ability as a minimum to avoid being restricted in future.
Entheon is right that you need good mics, though.
$220 2x Shure SM57 inc stand/cables (guitars/piano/other instruments)
$120 1x Shure SM58 inc stand/cable (vocals)
$200 Budget drum mic set
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=141/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/270749/
This drum mic set has a kickdrum mic, a snare drum mic, THREE tom mics and two 'pencil' overheads for you to hang from the ceiling above the kit to capture the cymbals.
Or maybe even this set ($300), probably much better for studio
http://www.micguys.com/drummers_package/vesuvius.htm
The above multitrack recorders can record 8 tracks simultaneously, so if you want to be really clever there is nothing to stop you using one of the SM57's in the centre of the room towards the kit for some room ambience to mix in, or maybe to mic underneath the snare for a little extra control over the snare sound.
Use two SM57's for the piano, one a third in from the end toward the bass strings, the other a third in toward the treble.
Mic the guitars with both SM57's - one close to the guitar cab grill and the other a few feet away facing the cab to capture some room ambience and a little more 'grunt'. You can mix these together later.
Use the SM58 for vocals. The SM58LC is a bit more expensive ($20) but has a handy on/off switch.
For acoustic guitars, you can use both SM57's, one aimed at the top of the neck and the other further away pointing towards it. Alternatively, you can mix this in with the condensor overheads in the drum mic set.
At a pinch, if you dont have so much for mics to start with - get that drum mic set for definite, and then just get an SM57. You can use this at a pinch for vocals, and you can mic a guitar satisfactorily with just one. You will also be able to use the condensor overheads from the drum mic set for the piano (NOT ideal).
Anyway, hope this is of use. Think of your entire budget for the recorder, mics, cables and a pair of simple monitors as about $1500. It is better to get decent stuff that will last then crap you will need to replace. Bear in mind that the two multitrack recorders above both have EQ, Compression and effects such as reverb built in. This will save you a small fortune in outboard gear.
You will have alot of scope with that recording setup.
For example:
Guitar 1: 1 track
Guitar 2: 1 track
Drums: 7 tracks (kick/snare/3 toms/2 overheads)
Bass: 1 track
Piano: 2 tracks (stereo)
Main vocals: 1 track
Backing vocals: 2 tracks
=15 tracks, leaving one spare for, say - an extra ambient mic on the lead guitar. Of course, if you have only one backing vocal track (or none) then this frees up more for other instruments.
The old 'analogue vs digital' argument is for comparing studio reel-to-reel analogue multitrack recorders to ADAT/hard disk digital multitrack recorders - not 'CD vs cassette tape'. We all know who wins there.
It is true that rock music benefits from the inherent warmth of analogue studio recording. However, it is not really 'all about analogue'. Jazz and Classical producers in particular are increasingly favouring Digital recording because it has a far lower noise floor, and thus has much better scope for capturing the full dynamic range of these genres.
So basically, for your requirements its a digital multi-track recording solution hands-down.
Zoom MRS-1608 ($800)
Yamaha AW16G ($600 ebay)
It may be true that you only need to record most sources two tracks at a time. Guitars can have two mics (one to mic the cab close the other for room ambience) etc.
However, this is not the case for drums. Ideally, you want a snare drum mic, a kick drum mic, and two overheads as a minimum. This means that you need a recorder with four simultaneous track recording ability as a minimum to avoid being restricted in future.
Entheon is right that you need good mics, though.
$220 2x Shure SM57 inc stand/cables (guitars/piano/other instruments)
$120 1x Shure SM58 inc stand/cable (vocals)
$200 Budget drum mic set
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=141/g=home/search/detail/base_pid/270749/
This drum mic set has a kickdrum mic, a snare drum mic, THREE tom mics and two 'pencil' overheads for you to hang from the ceiling above the kit to capture the cymbals.
Or maybe even this set ($300), probably much better for studio
http://www.micguys.com/drummers_package/vesuvius.htm
The above multitrack recorders can record 8 tracks simultaneously, so if you want to be really clever there is nothing to stop you using one of the SM57's in the centre of the room towards the kit for some room ambience to mix in, or maybe to mic underneath the snare for a little extra control over the snare sound.
Use two SM57's for the piano, one a third in from the end toward the bass strings, the other a third in toward the treble.
Mic the guitars with both SM57's - one close to the guitar cab grill and the other a few feet away facing the cab to capture some room ambience and a little more 'grunt'. You can mix these together later.
Use the SM58 for vocals. The SM58LC is a bit more expensive ($20) but has a handy on/off switch.
For acoustic guitars, you can use both SM57's, one aimed at the top of the neck and the other further away pointing towards it. Alternatively, you can mix this in with the condensor overheads in the drum mic set.
At a pinch, if you dont have so much for mics to start with - get that drum mic set for definite, and then just get an SM57. You can use this at a pinch for vocals, and you can mic a guitar satisfactorily with just one. You will also be able to use the condensor overheads from the drum mic set for the piano (NOT ideal).
Anyway, hope this is of use. Think of your entire budget for the recorder, mics, cables and a pair of simple monitors as about $1500. It is better to get decent stuff that will last then crap you will need to replace. Bear in mind that the two multitrack recorders above both have EQ, Compression and effects such as reverb built in. This will save you a small fortune in outboard gear.
You will have alot of scope with that recording setup.
For example:
Guitar 1: 1 track
Guitar 2: 1 track
Drums: 7 tracks (kick/snare/3 toms/2 overheads)
Bass: 1 track
Piano: 2 tracks (stereo)
Main vocals: 1 track
Backing vocals: 2 tracks
=15 tracks, leaving one spare for, say - an extra ambient mic on the lead guitar. Of course, if you have only one backing vocal track (or none) then this frees up more for other instruments.
DaveUK, that's all well and good, but you're looking at lots of $$$ there, and they said they wanna spend like $400, so that sorta puts all that stuff out of their price range
I know that CD quality kicks a cassette any day, however, it's the PRACTICE of recording in the analog medium which is what I'm talking about less than the actual analog medium in question - obviously reel to reel is what you want if you're going for that phat analog sound, but reel to reels are also damn expensive.
my point is that WITHIN their budget, they could get a cheap (but not bad) analog cassette tape 4-track and good microphones...
$100 = 4-track
$200 = Sure SM-57 x2
OR
$200 = drum kit mic set
and then you've even saved $100
or just up your budget by about $100 and you can get it all
I think you'd be better of gettting the drum kit mic set because you can run the piano and the guitar direct - so micing the drums would/will be the trickiest thing to really get it to sound anywhere near good and having a full drum kit mic set would help this a lot.
IMO that would be the better route to go at the moment...
Chill, once your skills as a band are good enough to get you paid playing gigs, only then should you think about starting to invest in the crazy high-qual equipment. For now, the demo style quality of a regular cassette tape will be FINE for your purposes and it will even get you gigs - that is, if you guys play well enough.
anyway, I totally agree with you Dave, on your suggestions, but we do have to THEN remind these kids is that they now need to GET JOBS!!!
so, listen up kids... go get a job!!! all of you!!! if you want the phat gear, it costs money, and unless your parents are rich - you'll need a way to get that money (no no no!!! not selling drugs! lol... a REAL job) heheheh
I know that CD quality kicks a cassette any day, however, it's the PRACTICE of recording in the analog medium which is what I'm talking about less than the actual analog medium in question - obviously reel to reel is what you want if you're going for that phat analog sound, but reel to reels are also damn expensive.
my point is that WITHIN their budget, they could get a cheap (but not bad) analog cassette tape 4-track and good microphones...
$100 = 4-track
$200 = Sure SM-57 x2
OR
$200 = drum kit mic set
and then you've even saved $100
or just up your budget by about $100 and you can get it all
I think you'd be better of gettting the drum kit mic set because you can run the piano and the guitar direct - so micing the drums would/will be the trickiest thing to really get it to sound anywhere near good and having a full drum kit mic set would help this a lot.
IMO that would be the better route to go at the moment...
Chill, once your skills as a band are good enough to get you paid playing gigs, only then should you think about starting to invest in the crazy high-qual equipment. For now, the demo style quality of a regular cassette tape will be FINE for your purposes and it will even get you gigs - that is, if you guys play well enough.
anyway, I totally agree with you Dave, on your suggestions, but we do have to THEN remind these kids is that they now need to GET JOBS!!!
so, listen up kids... go get a job!!! all of you!!! if you want the phat gear, it costs money, and unless your parents are rich - you'll need a way to get that money (no no no!!! not selling drugs! lol... a REAL job) heheheh
Well, he said that he wanted a multitrack recorder for a bit over $750. In this price range the best I can think of is the Zoom one, has the edge over the boss. A little cheaper (second hand) is that Yamaha.
But ya you are right, the mics etc cost a fair bit. The idea is to build on the setup - eg they could get the recorder...then the drum mic set...then an sm57...then another sm57...then maybe an SM58.
The cassette recorder is probably a good idea to save cash, but I don't know if it will fulfill their requirements - id personally find it too restrictive. Still, it is true that it would be substantially cheaper. But then again, the all-in-one solutions incorporate onboard EQ, compression, reverb, and CD-burning in one box...which saves additional expense.
Anyway, its up to you and your budget. Entheon is perfectly right in that it may be easier on the wallet to get a very cheap recorder and spend the money on mics, knowing that by the time you get that big bad digital multitrack you will have more recording experience. If you can afford it, though - get the drum mic set and the Zoom or Yamaha to start - you won't be dissapointed. I'd be interested to know what you guys end up with in the end and hear the results. If you aren't sure about using any of it ie mic positioning, eq/compression work, then feel free to post here
But ya you are right, the mics etc cost a fair bit. The idea is to build on the setup - eg they could get the recorder...then the drum mic set...then an sm57...then another sm57...then maybe an SM58.
The cassette recorder is probably a good idea to save cash, but I don't know if it will fulfill their requirements - id personally find it too restrictive. Still, it is true that it would be substantially cheaper. But then again, the all-in-one solutions incorporate onboard EQ, compression, reverb, and CD-burning in one box...which saves additional expense.
Anyway, its up to you and your budget. Entheon is perfectly right in that it may be easier on the wallet to get a very cheap recorder and spend the money on mics, knowing that by the time you get that big bad digital multitrack you will have more recording experience. If you can afford it, though - get the drum mic set and the Zoom or Yamaha to start - you won't be dissapointed. I'd be interested to know what you guys end up with in the end and hear the results. If you aren't sure about using any of it ie mic positioning, eq/compression work, then feel free to post here
as we all can see we still have a dilemma... daveUK i will remember what you have said for a later time, what entheon said was spot on.... we DONT want to spend thousands of dollars until we get good and we feel it's "worth" it.
Right now we haven't so called "recorded" a song, we just jam our songs and leave my camera to record everything then i just take it back to my house and cut everything up into mp3's just to hear how we are playing.
Now we feel that we would like to "try" recording and before entheons post i believed cassette recorders were a waste of the so little money that they cost anyway, but yeah we might end up doing that.
Our other option was to rent like a 16 track and stuff and just do that for like 2 days but hmm thats more "recording" like ok let's sit down and play this song 5 times until we get the volume perfect.. everything perfect. THAT said we are going to do that, but when we feel we are good enough and at that same time we won't bother renting because it will be worth it to just buy the multi track.
Oh the piano doesn't need mics because i got a piano pickup but then again that won't be giving no stereo sound.
drummer has the new drum kit and now is going to buy a mic set but when we went out to see them there were two.... one was $1200AU for 4 mic set and the other one was $1600AU for a 6 mic set, and basically our drummer needs a 6 one for the 5 cymbals four toms and snare.
A computer can be made available for recording... so is there a way we can just get a mixer and plug that into a computer? cause i got the creative audigy 24bit card thing and that sounds like it does some good recording.
Also mixers are a lot cheaper
So can anyone please tell me the pro's and con's of mixers and are they right for us?
Right now we haven't so called "recorded" a song, we just jam our songs and leave my camera to record everything then i just take it back to my house and cut everything up into mp3's just to hear how we are playing.
Now we feel that we would like to "try" recording and before entheons post i believed cassette recorders were a waste of the so little money that they cost anyway, but yeah we might end up doing that.
Our other option was to rent like a 16 track and stuff and just do that for like 2 days but hmm thats more "recording" like ok let's sit down and play this song 5 times until we get the volume perfect.. everything perfect. THAT said we are going to do that, but when we feel we are good enough and at that same time we won't bother renting because it will be worth it to just buy the multi track.
Oh the piano doesn't need mics because i got a piano pickup but then again that won't be giving no stereo sound.
drummer has the new drum kit and now is going to buy a mic set but when we went out to see them there were two.... one was $1200AU for 4 mic set and the other one was $1600AU for a 6 mic set, and basically our drummer needs a 6 one for the 5 cymbals four toms and snare.
A computer can be made available for recording... so is there a way we can just get a mixer and plug that into a computer? cause i got the creative audigy 24bit card thing and that sounds like it does some good recording.
Also mixers are a lot cheaper
So can anyone please tell me the pro's and con's of mixers and are they right for us?
no DaveUK, actually what he said was this:
We found some that we thought were perfect for us but it turned out they can only record 2 tracks simultaneously (oh and by the way our budget was $500AUD thats like 400 US)
and as for Chill... DAMN KID!!! read my f8cking posts!!!! I've already explained ALL this, about computer recording and mixers >>
http://forum.bandamp.com/Gear_Talk/3845.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Gear_Talk/6181.html
and yeah, my guess is that you should just do the computer recording thing cuz it'll be a lot cheaper and much higher quality in the end.
However! I still have to stick up for the ol' tried and true casette tape method, because I have made many a recording on just a 4-track cassette recorder that sounded MORE than decent. It's not the limitations of the gear, it's the limitations of your mind. If you're using your CAMERA to record your stuff... then if you SWITCH to a cassette tape 4-track you'll have INFINITELY higher quality compared to what you have now. Sure, you get what you pay for, and cassette recorders are cheap... but! They are not to be overlooked, because all that CHEAP means in THIS case is that you can afford it, and that's good, not bad.
Anyway, I still recommend going with a generic digital setup. You can get the basic gear for about $200 and then you can purchase a lite copy of Cubase and you'll be all set.
and no, your drummer does NOT need a 6 mic set, you REALLY only need two:
1) Bass
2) Snare/Hat
and better to have 4
1) Bass
2) Snare/Hat
3 & 4) Two Tom Mics
but that said, it'd be nice to have a 6 mic set, but remember, it's not how many cymbals he has... all the cymbals can be dealt with by using just two overhead mics in combination with the 4 mic standard drum kit set... though if you want to get technical and "go down that road" then what you need is about 14 microphones...
Bass
Snare
Hi-Hat
Floor Tom
Mid Tom
Hi-Mid Tom
Hi Tom
Thats 7 mics + 5 mics, one for each cymbal
That's 12 mics + 2 overhead mics for the transients
That's a 14 mic setup
YOU DON'T NEED A 14 MIC DRUM MIC SET!!!
see? so my point, is that you don't need that gianormous 6 mic drum kit mic set because you only really need two, Bass and Snare/Hat... for your current purposes anything above and beyond that is just gravy.
uhh, so you're gonna be recording an acoustic piano with a rock band? that sounds a bit tricky... if you've got a 6 mic drum set with two overhead cymbal mics I'd suggest using those cymbal mics stereo inside the piano... OR instead of buying the 6 mic drum kit set... just get a 4 mic set, and then buy a "normal" stereo pair of mics to use for both the cymbals and the piano...
I thought you had an electric keyboard for some reason, and don't get me wrong - a real piano is the best way to go... but as far as simplicity and plain quality... honestly I think I'd rather hear an electric keyboard run direct than an out of tune piano badly mic'ed
oh and by the way... when you're recording, the whole point IS to play everything 50 times until you get it perfect. I suggest you guys do less jamming during your practices and actually practice during your practice... that is... stop the song every few seconds and work on the parts that need to be worked on, play those parts over and over and over again - so that you've got it perfect. THEN, when it comes time to record... you'll be able to play it perfect. Key thing to realize here - in the REAL world, recording studio time is worth MONEY - so whether it be in your own home or in a professional studio you should treat it like it's worth money. Don't waste your time with "recording" crap. Practice your asses off and THEN go "into the studio" to track a song. This is not to say you can't just record your practice live - that's a great thing to do as well... but they are different beats - live recording and studio recording and you should treat them as such.
Actually, you SHOULD record ALL your practices... ever time. Make a standard practice session and make it multiples of two... so, two hours, 4 hours, 6 hours... then what you do is you play/practice for an hour while you record it... just set the record button to "on" and then GO! and don't waste time, just go... then after an hour, you all take a break... and listen back to the ENTIRE practice session for ANOTHER hour - you can drill scales mindlessly and your drummer can use a practice pad or whatever while you're listening. But really listen to it, and then go back for ANOTHER hour and fix what was wrong... go back and incorporate everything you heard that you wanted different. And then, yet again, go back and sit down for ANOTHER hour and listen back to what you just did to see if you really did fix what you heard. That will make you guys a better band than anything. If you've only got an hour, then split it up... into two half hours sessions... or even perhaps four 15min sessions... but honestly, if you're really serious, it takes an hour just to get warmed up, sometimes two. That's why second set is always better than first.
So, yes... even if all you've got is a cassette recorder - you CAN and SHOULD - take your time! Play that part 15 times if you need to in order to get it perfect. The whole idea though is that you don't waste your time in the studio playing your parts over and over, you do that on your own time - it's called practice. Then when you hit the studio you'll only need to play it once. Aight? I say the same things over and over again in different ways for a reason... I'm not just rambling.
We found some that we thought were perfect for us but it turned out they can only record 2 tracks simultaneously (oh and by the way our budget was $500AUD thats like 400 US)
and as for Chill... DAMN KID!!! read my f8cking posts!!!! I've already explained ALL this, about computer recording and mixers >>
http://forum.bandamp.com/Gear_Talk/3845.html
http://forum.bandamp.com/Gear_Talk/6181.html
and yeah, my guess is that you should just do the computer recording thing cuz it'll be a lot cheaper and much higher quality in the end.
However! I still have to stick up for the ol' tried and true casette tape method, because I have made many a recording on just a 4-track cassette recorder that sounded MORE than decent. It's not the limitations of the gear, it's the limitations of your mind. If you're using your CAMERA to record your stuff... then if you SWITCH to a cassette tape 4-track you'll have INFINITELY higher quality compared to what you have now. Sure, you get what you pay for, and cassette recorders are cheap... but! They are not to be overlooked, because all that CHEAP means in THIS case is that you can afford it, and that's good, not bad.
Anyway, I still recommend going with a generic digital setup. You can get the basic gear for about $200 and then you can purchase a lite copy of Cubase and you'll be all set.
and no, your drummer does NOT need a 6 mic set, you REALLY only need two:
1) Bass
2) Snare/Hat
and better to have 4
1) Bass
2) Snare/Hat
3 & 4) Two Tom Mics
but that said, it'd be nice to have a 6 mic set, but remember, it's not how many cymbals he has... all the cymbals can be dealt with by using just two overhead mics in combination with the 4 mic standard drum kit set... though if you want to get technical and "go down that road" then what you need is about 14 microphones...
Bass
Snare
Hi-Hat
Floor Tom
Mid Tom
Hi-Mid Tom
Hi Tom
Thats 7 mics + 5 mics, one for each cymbal
That's 12 mics + 2 overhead mics for the transients
That's a 14 mic setup
YOU DON'T NEED A 14 MIC DRUM MIC SET!!!
see? so my point, is that you don't need that gianormous 6 mic drum kit mic set because you only really need two, Bass and Snare/Hat... for your current purposes anything above and beyond that is just gravy.
uhh, so you're gonna be recording an acoustic piano with a rock band? that sounds a bit tricky... if you've got a 6 mic drum set with two overhead cymbal mics I'd suggest using those cymbal mics stereo inside the piano... OR instead of buying the 6 mic drum kit set... just get a 4 mic set, and then buy a "normal" stereo pair of mics to use for both the cymbals and the piano...
I thought you had an electric keyboard for some reason, and don't get me wrong - a real piano is the best way to go... but as far as simplicity and plain quality... honestly I think I'd rather hear an electric keyboard run direct than an out of tune piano badly mic'ed
oh and by the way... when you're recording, the whole point IS to play everything 50 times until you get it perfect. I suggest you guys do less jamming during your practices and actually practice during your practice... that is... stop the song every few seconds and work on the parts that need to be worked on, play those parts over and over and over again - so that you've got it perfect. THEN, when it comes time to record... you'll be able to play it perfect. Key thing to realize here - in the REAL world, recording studio time is worth MONEY - so whether it be in your own home or in a professional studio you should treat it like it's worth money. Don't waste your time with "recording" crap. Practice your asses off and THEN go "into the studio" to track a song. This is not to say you can't just record your practice live - that's a great thing to do as well... but they are different beats - live recording and studio recording and you should treat them as such.
Actually, you SHOULD record ALL your practices... ever time. Make a standard practice session and make it multiples of two... so, two hours, 4 hours, 6 hours... then what you do is you play/practice for an hour while you record it... just set the record button to "on" and then GO! and don't waste time, just go... then after an hour, you all take a break... and listen back to the ENTIRE practice session for ANOTHER hour - you can drill scales mindlessly and your drummer can use a practice pad or whatever while you're listening. But really listen to it, and then go back for ANOTHER hour and fix what was wrong... go back and incorporate everything you heard that you wanted different. And then, yet again, go back and sit down for ANOTHER hour and listen back to what you just did to see if you really did fix what you heard. That will make you guys a better band than anything. If you've only got an hour, then split it up... into two half hours sessions... or even perhaps four 15min sessions... but honestly, if you're really serious, it takes an hour just to get warmed up, sometimes two. That's why second set is always better than first.
So, yes... even if all you've got is a cassette recorder - you CAN and SHOULD - take your time! Play that part 15 times if you need to in order to get it perfect. The whole idea though is that you don't waste your time in the studio playing your parts over and over, you do that on your own time - it's called practice. Then when you hit the studio you'll only need to play it once. Aight? I say the same things over and over again in different ways for a reason... I'm not just rambling.
Sorry was just me being dim about the budget, it was kinda the early hours of the morning when I first read the post 
Anyway, I have to disagree completely with the suggestions for miking a drum kit.
You are right, the idea of close miking a kit with 14 mics is as absurb as it is (in actual fact) musically pointless. Its not the 'technical' way of doing it at all, it just doesnt make sense from an engineers perspective. It's the same idea as micing each string of an acoustic guitar separately and then trying to piece them back together in a studio.
Not to mention that the main complications with drum multi-micing are 'phase' problems - where elements seem to 'drop out' of the mix and some of the mics may require the phase to be inverted (one for another day).
The hi-hat should not need to be mic'd at all - it will bleed sufficiently through the other mics.
In addition, a single mic between the snare and hat will mean that there is absolutely no stereo separation of the toms or the cymbals. This setup will be very restrictive. It also makes it impossible to add sufficient 'pop' to a snare without creating an ugly mid-frequency ridge in the hat.
My personal recommendation as a minimum would be to mic the kick drum, and the snare close - and use two overheads to capture the cymbals and toms. Use a limiter to cut back on the wild transients from the cymbals. At a pinch, you can forget the snare mic and just use overheads.
The two overheads you can also use for micing other instruments as Entheon suggested, such as a live piano.
Anyway, all I am saying is that you seem to be confusing your requirements with your budget. I'm trying to cater more for your requirements, Entheon is trying to cater for your budget - both are right in their own way.
The choice is yours - a poor cassette recording setup that gives little in the way of true 'multi-track' recording - or save up and get a setup that gives good sound quality, and the scope to produce something that is actually 'mixed' rather than simply 'recorded'. Personally I'd rather continue as you are, concentrate on the playing, and save up to get something decent to record with that wont restrict you.
I guess its up to you.
Also, bear in mind that if you get a lower-spec recorder (eg 8-track), there is nothing to stop you running the four drum mics into a four-track mixer and then output into stereo L/R for the recorder so they just take up two tracks. Pan the overheads to either side, kick centre, snare to right a little.
And yes I cannot agree with Entheon's suggestions on practising and listening enough.
Peace, love, and good luck!
Anyway, I have to disagree completely with the suggestions for miking a drum kit.
You are right, the idea of close miking a kit with 14 mics is as absurb as it is (in actual fact) musically pointless. Its not the 'technical' way of doing it at all, it just doesnt make sense from an engineers perspective. It's the same idea as micing each string of an acoustic guitar separately and then trying to piece them back together in a studio.
Not to mention that the main complications with drum multi-micing are 'phase' problems - where elements seem to 'drop out' of the mix and some of the mics may require the phase to be inverted (one for another day).
The hi-hat should not need to be mic'd at all - it will bleed sufficiently through the other mics.
In addition, a single mic between the snare and hat will mean that there is absolutely no stereo separation of the toms or the cymbals. This setup will be very restrictive. It also makes it impossible to add sufficient 'pop' to a snare without creating an ugly mid-frequency ridge in the hat.
My personal recommendation as a minimum would be to mic the kick drum, and the snare close - and use two overheads to capture the cymbals and toms. Use a limiter to cut back on the wild transients from the cymbals. At a pinch, you can forget the snare mic and just use overheads.
The two overheads you can also use for micing other instruments as Entheon suggested, such as a live piano.
Anyway, all I am saying is that you seem to be confusing your requirements with your budget. I'm trying to cater more for your requirements, Entheon is trying to cater for your budget - both are right in their own way.
The choice is yours - a poor cassette recording setup that gives little in the way of true 'multi-track' recording - or save up and get a setup that gives good sound quality, and the scope to produce something that is actually 'mixed' rather than simply 'recorded'. Personally I'd rather continue as you are, concentrate on the playing, and save up to get something decent to record with that wont restrict you.
I guess its up to you.
Also, bear in mind that if you get a lower-spec recorder (eg 8-track), there is nothing to stop you running the four drum mics into a four-track mixer and then output into stereo L/R for the recorder so they just take up two tracks. Pan the overheads to either side, kick centre, snare to right a little.
And yes I cannot agree with Entheon's suggestions on practising and listening enough.
Peace, love, and good luck!
right, well I'm not a professional drum mic expert
so whatever... yes I was more trying to fit the budget - regardless of the technical exactitutdes - my general suggestions hold roughly true I think...
my vote goes to a cassette 4-track, about 3 SM-57's and a kick mic... and DaveUK though I'll agree I really know nothing about mic'ing drums I have to disagree that a cassette 4-track is really very "poor" in any manner. Of course it's nothing compared to digital, but a cassette 4-track has just as much "true multitracking" capability as any digital setup I can think of. You can record 4 tracks at the same time... or one track at a time but keep them separate... it IS true multitracking... and it's super cheap, and I don't know if you remember what it was like to be 16 and have no money - I don't LOL - but I can sorta empathise. In this case, my guess is that budget is the overriding concern - cuz lets look at it objectively and bluntly... these kids aren't that great yet... so why go out and have them spend loads of $$$ on something they can't make the full potential use of? That previous statement is making a lot of assumptions, most of which probably are totally irrelevant, hehehe, which I don't like to do... but it's just rhetoric and I think you understand my point.
my point with the cassette is that it IS cheap, so they can get started right away, but it is leagues better in terms of quality and capability than their current "record onto the camera" setup. It is a great learning tool and it will get them where they want to go for now. In a way, this situation is rather like buying a new computer... no matter what there will always be something better than what you've got... so no matter where you are... you've got to take the dive at some point and just plunge right in - shell out the dollars for what you can afford - and make do with what you've got. Yeah of course you could wait and save up... but I know how I am... I wouldn't wanna wait
So, I think you should go with the best cheapest quickest thing you can get, and the most portable of those is a cassette tape 4-track
besides, if you get one of those you'll learn A LOT (two words) about recording and you won't have to break the bank. Then when it comes to time really sink the money into a good investment - you'll already have some skill and knowlege of what the process is like and how to do it. If you get some GOOD quality mics like some SM-57's then you won't need to scrap your entire setup - you'll just wanna get a slightly different recording medium. Mics can be as expensive as the recording equipment itself, so you'll still have half of your setup that you don't need to get rid of.
I personally, think that you should go for the cassette 4-track now... and THEN do the waiting and the saving... I'm kind of an all or nothing guy and this reflects my philosophy... for now just go on the cheap... and then when it's time to make it count... REALLY fsckin make it count and go all the way...
if you do it like that then you'll have your cake and eat it too... you'll have a recording setup wich is FINE for your current skill level... and that will get you through all the time inbetween until you have the money to really invest in the good shit...
my main reason for pusching the cassette 4-track so hard is that it's portable - so you can take it to gigs, and you can even use it at a gig just as a mixer
anyway, the choice is yours now... the key is to do your research
so whatever... yes I was more trying to fit the budget - regardless of the technical exactitutdes - my general suggestions hold roughly true I think...
my vote goes to a cassette 4-track, about 3 SM-57's and a kick mic... and DaveUK though I'll agree I really know nothing about mic'ing drums I have to disagree that a cassette 4-track is really very "poor" in any manner. Of course it's nothing compared to digital, but a cassette 4-track has just as much "true multitracking" capability as any digital setup I can think of. You can record 4 tracks at the same time... or one track at a time but keep them separate... it IS true multitracking... and it's super cheap, and I don't know if you remember what it was like to be 16 and have no money - I don't LOL - but I can sorta empathise. In this case, my guess is that budget is the overriding concern - cuz lets look at it objectively and bluntly... these kids aren't that great yet... so why go out and have them spend loads of $$$ on something they can't make the full potential use of? That previous statement is making a lot of assumptions, most of which probably are totally irrelevant, hehehe, which I don't like to do... but it's just rhetoric and I think you understand my point.
my point with the cassette is that it IS cheap, so they can get started right away, but it is leagues better in terms of quality and capability than their current "record onto the camera" setup. It is a great learning tool and it will get them where they want to go for now. In a way, this situation is rather like buying a new computer... no matter what there will always be something better than what you've got... so no matter where you are... you've got to take the dive at some point and just plunge right in - shell out the dollars for what you can afford - and make do with what you've got. Yeah of course you could wait and save up... but I know how I am... I wouldn't wanna wait
So, I think you should go with the best cheapest quickest thing you can get, and the most portable of those is a cassette tape 4-track
besides, if you get one of those you'll learn A LOT (two words) about recording and you won't have to break the bank. Then when it comes to time really sink the money into a good investment - you'll already have some skill and knowlege of what the process is like and how to do it. If you get some GOOD quality mics like some SM-57's then you won't need to scrap your entire setup - you'll just wanna get a slightly different recording medium. Mics can be as expensive as the recording equipment itself, so you'll still have half of your setup that you don't need to get rid of.
I personally, think that you should go for the cassette 4-track now... and THEN do the waiting and the saving... I'm kind of an all or nothing guy and this reflects my philosophy... for now just go on the cheap... and then when it's time to make it count... REALLY fsckin make it count and go all the way...
if you do it like that then you'll have your cake and eat it too... you'll have a recording setup wich is FINE for your current skill level... and that will get you through all the time inbetween until you have the money to really invest in the good shit...
my main reason for pusching the cassette 4-track so hard is that it's portable - so you can take it to gigs, and you can even use it at a gig just as a mixer
anyway, the choice is yours now... the key is to do your research
entheon, what happened to your typical "double your budget" policy? Just kidding...double your future budget by getting the 4 track now. I just wanted to mention that you can get fine sound out of 4 track cassette recorder. I can recall however, that I found it a pain to keep stereo sound (if that's important to you). This was the process on the 414 (you don't need to use these track numbers...):
record to tracks 1 and 2. bounce these to stereo on tracks 3 and 4. to add more, (now i'm not sure if i'm using the right terminology) bounce tracks 3 and 4 to 1 and 2 with your new music being bounced there as well (in stereo). What this means is you don't have a chance to tweak a new track. You can't have tracks 1 and 2 be stereo and 3 be your new track that you are going to add to the stereo because you could only bounce all that to 4--mono. Did any of that make sense?
I would assume that the process is the same for the 424 but i'm not really sure. I've never used it but I know it has a some more faders but i'd think if it's 4 tracks it's 4 tracks and would work the same.
record to tracks 1 and 2. bounce these to stereo on tracks 3 and 4. to add more, (now i'm not sure if i'm using the right terminology) bounce tracks 3 and 4 to 1 and 2 with your new music being bounced there as well (in stereo). What this means is you don't have a chance to tweak a new track. You can't have tracks 1 and 2 be stereo and 3 be your new track that you are going to add to the stereo because you could only bounce all that to 4--mono. Did any of that make sense?
I would assume that the process is the same for the 424 but i'm not really sure. I've never used it but I know it has a some more faders but i'd think if it's 4 tracks it's 4 tracks and would work the same.
you are right, we CANT wait and are very impatient and cheap lol
Fostex Xr-5 seems to be the perfect one for us, considering how cheap it is.... it's got tonnes of inputs and does anybody know how many tracks it can record simultaneously? If the answer to that question is 4 or more, we are purchasing it.
Another thing is that we have 2 microphones lying around that we haven't used that is actually from my dad's band. One is a golden microphone, I want to check what model and brand they are... as they look really expensive and if they are any good, we save ourselves a lot of money and got some good mics...
Fostex Xr-5 seems to be the perfect one for us, considering how cheap it is.... it's got tonnes of inputs and does anybody know how many tracks it can record simultaneously? If the answer to that question is 4 or more, we are purchasing it.
Another thing is that we have 2 microphones lying around that we haven't used that is actually from my dad's band. One is a golden microphone, I want to check what model and brand they are... as they look really expensive and if they are any good, we save ourselves a lot of money and got some good mics...
If you already have mics, this is the closest I can find to your requirements:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--FOSMR8HD
Fostex MR8-HD
Much better than the XR-5, and offers 8 tracks of digital recording with upto 4 simultaneously. All within your budget at $399.95.
http://www.zzounds.com/item--FOSMR8HD
Fostex MR8-HD
Much better than the XR-5, and offers 8 tracks of digital recording with upto 4 simultaneously. All within your budget at $399.95.
*NEWS UPDATE*
=> I have bought a multi track recorder... it's cheap... it's a cassette recorder and it's called a Fostex X-24
Bought it off of Ebay for 135 US and free postage (yay)
It's got 4 guitar inputs, and 2 XLR mic inputs...
4 tracks simultanoues recording.... ummm and just some pitch shifters and stuff but the inputs and the simultaneous recording is all that matters to us anyway, sooo yeah, we got a new song too... so we will post it soon... school holidays are coming up and some serious jamming will be going on, my guess.... 10 - 14 days before we post the new material. Thanks guys for helping me with our dilemma and let's hope we bought the right product!
=> I have bought a multi track recorder... it's cheap... it's a cassette recorder and it's called a Fostex X-24
Bought it off of Ebay for 135 US and free postage (yay)
It's got 4 guitar inputs, and 2 XLR mic inputs...
4 tracks simultanoues recording.... ummm and just some pitch shifters and stuff but the inputs and the simultaneous recording is all that matters to us anyway, sooo yeah, we got a new song too... so we will post it soon... school holidays are coming up and some serious jamming will be going on, my guess.... 10 - 14 days before we post the new material. Thanks guys for helping me with our dilemma and let's hope we bought the right product!
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