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#1June 30th, 2012 · 03:37 PM
371 threads / 187 songs
3,348 posts
United Kingdom
Studio Monitors
For the Last 4 years I've used Logitech 2.1 Z3 PC speakers
to monitor and mix all my music productions, they work for me.
I've done some research, at one time many producers used Yamaha NS10 monitors.
I was going to buy some monitors for my laptop and was looking at M-Audio, KRK and behringer, but then realised I'm so used to using the Logitech 2.1 speakers, I might as well get a another set the same or similar.
I'm watching some on eBay and may well end up getting some.

I'd be interested to know what your experience has been with studio monitors and if and how by purchasing Studio reference monitors has improved your productions.

I do like to hear full bass, the logitech sub I use work well in that I can measure how much Bass to cut.  I have a feeling that unless I purchase Studio monitors with a sub speaker, my ears will not be able to balance the mix as well. Studio monitors with sub speakers are a lot more money in comparison, but when I set-up a studio in two years time, I will be quite happy to buy some Yamaha 2.1 speakers.
#2July 1st, 2012 · 05:18 AM
117 threads / 27 songs
1,057 posts
Germany
   Aaaaarrrghghg! 

NOW I understand why youīre missing bass freqs in some of my tracks. With this -sorry for the harsh diction- crappy "blare cubes" you canīt hear low freqs, despite the (wannabe)-subwoofer.
And Iīm sure the frequency-diagram looks rather unlinear - more like an up-and downswing.
These are speakers made for a nursery, but not for  producing music seriously.

The box is the most important tool in music production. Itīs the last link in a chain of devices.
Beginning with the source (CD-player, turntable, etc), continuing with a hi-quality-stereo-amp and decent cables (cinch and speaker-wires) up to the speakers themselves.

So, my tip is this, Denis : When youīre gonna build your new studio, invest some (more) money into your monitoring equipment. Donīt be close-fisted , donīt look to much for bargains. Itīs just a "one-time-in-life" investment. Look for good stereo amps, test out a few cables , go to Hifi-stores and check out some speakers, cables, amps. Read Hifi magazines.

For example my Hifi-chain :
Harman Kardon CD Copy-station CDR 20 (2 players).
Marantz amp PM 8000 (160 Watt in A/B operation , ca. 25 W in class-A operation  [sounds like a tube amp]).
Speakers = Canton Carat M 80 (300 W  ----22 - 30 000 Hz,, dīAppolito-system, 2 x 30cm-bass-speakers inside).
Cinch cables from "audioline", speaker cables from "kimber".
This was a "one-time-in-my-life-" investment. But itīs necessary to have fun in listening and producing music.
Listening to music isnīt just an audible experience, itīs also a physical experience. One must feel the vibrations in the stomach, under the butt, with every cell of the body. And it needs a detailed tonal and a wide, stereoscopic reproduction range. With headphones or such "Mini-sat-sub"-systems you can never achieve such experiences.
#3July 2nd, 2012 · 12:26 PM
371 threads / 187 songs
3,348 posts
United Kingdom
#4July 2nd, 2012 · 12:43 PM
371 threads / 187 songs
3,348 posts
United Kingdom
ULI wrote…
:dead:    Aaaaarrrghghg! 

NOW I understand why youīre missing bass freqs in some of my tracks. With this -sorry for the harsh diction- crappy "blare cubes" you canīt hear low freqs, despite the (wannabe)-subwoofer.
And Iīm sure the frequency-diagram looks rather unlinear - more like an up-and downswing.
These are speakers made for a nursery, but not for  producing music seriously.

The box is the most important tool in music production. Itīs the last link in a chain of devices.
Beginning with the source (CD-player, turntable, etc), continuing with a hi-quality-stereo-amp and decent cables (cinch and speaker-wires) up to the speakers themselves.

So, my tip is this, Denis : When youīre gonna build your new studio, invest some (more) money into your monitoring equipment. Donīt be close-fisted , donīt look to much for bargains. Itīs just a "one-time-in-life" investment. Look for good stereo amps, test out a few cables , go to Hifi-stores and check out some speakers, cables, amps. Read Hifi magazines.

For example my Hifi-chain :
Harman Kardon CD Copy-station CDR 20 (2 players).
Marantz amp PM 8000 (160 Watt in A/B operation , ca. 25 W in class-A operation  [sounds like a tube amp]).
Speakers = Canton Carat M 80 (300 W  ----22 - 30 000 Hz,, dīAppolito-system, 2 x 30cm-bass-speakers inside).
Cinch cables from "audioline", speaker cables from "kimber".
This was a "one-time-in-my-life-" investment. But itīs necessary to have fun in listening and producing music.
Listening to music isnīt just an audible experience, itīs also a physical experience. One must feel the vibrations in the stomach, under the butt, with every cell of the body. And it needs a detailed tonal and a wide, stereoscopic reproduction range. With headphones or such "Mini-sat-sub"-systems you can never achieve such experiences.
You would be amazed as I was when you hear the sound quality from my logitech speakers, when set-up right as I have, the sub only a set at about 20% of it's power, you get a very even broad spectrum of Eq, the Bass is lovely, rich, warm and deep, mids and treble clear and crisp.  I've owned a Class A Technics Hi-Fi System with Tannoy Mercury speakers and the Logitech IMO give more natural sound. Having said this I've never owned or indeed heard a good set of Studio monitors, and would love to hear what they sound like. Anyway, I've decided to look for pro small studio monitors, as I'm limited to space at the moment, I'll naturally keep my Logitechs just in case I don't get on with the Studio monitors.
I researched your Canton Cart Speakers, they look beautiful, but they are marketed as Hi-Fi speakers, for what I've read, HiFi Speakers colour the sound, so not good for monitoring
#5July 2nd, 2012 · 05:01 PM
2 threads / 1 songs
85 posts
United Kingdom
I don't have anything fancy. I find it easier to produce music when wearing my (mid range sennheiser) headphones as they isolate your ears from the outside and let you hear the softer sounds and bass frequencies and maybe most importantly give a good sense of balance. They become a pain after hours of music production tho. My hi-fi set up is an old jap made JVC amp with mid sized Technics speakers that are a bit heavy on the bass (I think b'cos they're part of a surround sound set which is geared to delivering huge bass sounds for films). I would have better if I could afford it.

No disrespect intended ULI but In my opinion, If you can't hear the bass frequencies on a standard hi fi (or worse, a system with a big sub woofer like yours) then you need to add more bass. B'cos if you want to market your song to the public... the average Joe doesn't have $1500 monitors (some neds even listen to stuff on their phones' loudspeaker... pretty much zilch bass on those :s)

Let us know what you get
#6July 2nd, 2012 · 05:20 PM
371 threads / 187 songs
3,348 posts
United Kingdom
IanS wrote…
I don't have anything fancy. I find it easier to produce music when wearing my (mid range sennheiser) headphones as they isolate your ears from the outside and let you hear the softer sounds and bass frequencies and maybe most importantly give a good sense of balance. They become a pain after hours of music production tho. My hi-fi set up is an old jap made JVC amp with mid sized Technics speakers that are a bit heavy on the bass (I think b'cos they're part of a surround sound set which is geared to delivering huge bass sounds for films). I would have better if I could afford it.

No disrespect intended ULI but In my opinion, If you can't hear the bass frequencies on a standard hi fi (or worse, a system with a big sub woofer like yours) then you need to add more bass. B'cos if you want to market your song to the public... the average Joe doesn't have $1500 monitors (some neds even listen to stuff on their phones' loudspeaker... pretty much zilch bass on those :s)

Let us know what you get
I find that headphones are best to create the pan in the mix, but not good for EQ, but then again I only ave a cheap set of Sennheisers - I did some research once on headphones and there are supposedly ones good for mixing.
Focusrite have a toy called VRM I think, it simulates sounds from different devices, like a small radio alarm clock to a quality Hi-Fi system, so that you can work out a mix that will hopefully sound good on most types of listening devices.
Have you heard of a company called Studiospares in the UK, they are a top company, many top studios buy equipment from them.  They do there own studio monitors, the reviews on them are great. As I'm restricted for space, I may get a small speaker, even there 4" woofer system handles 60RMS, that's plenty for my small set-up.  My current speakers are 40RMS and I've never had to put them up by more than 60%, and that's only to compare the mix between soft and loud. Here are the speakers I have my eye on:
http://www.studiospares.com/studio-monitors/studiospares-seiwin-sn-4a-pair/invt/248050/?htxt=%2FUvRjc0xAaKk26JwgsxcsV6E2gjpK53ITJCPcypNRrR6jhjYX3SDlEUFWaOdTpLU0xVcTayKYYOc%0Aw4t9gBa9qg%3D%3D
#7July 3rd, 2012 · 03:43 AM
117 threads / 27 songs
1,057 posts
Germany
Denis wrote…
HiFi Speakers colour the sound, so not good for monitoring
Some Hifi speakers do colour the sound, thatīs true. But I chose the Cantons coz they are very neutral linear, clear and well balanced tonally. I bought īem before I restarted making music again.
For sure, they are NO nearfield-monis. Listener needs distance .

Few years back I read recording magazines frequently and on some studio pics you could see many
"normal" Hifi speakers as monitor systemd. B&W (Bowers & Wilkins) boxes are very often used in studios as well as Hifi speakers at home. They always show a powerful performance and are very linear in their freq-spectrum . Pretty recommendable UK-company.

IanS wrote…
If you can't hear the bass frequencies on a standard hi fi (or worse, a system with a big sub woofer like yours) then you need to add more bass.
Basically youīre right about that, Ian. I always try to find a compromise in my mixes . During mix-mastering process I play a piece on different devices (dvd player via TV, small Logitech PC speakers, car Hifi).
But I wonīt work like many pro-studios : making diffferent mixes for different medias : one for radioplay, one for disco, one for handhold mp3-device, one for audiophile music friends.
So I try to find a "middle course" for "average Joe".
But to be honest : I tend to produce more for a handful of audiophile music friends who lean back on their sofa and who want listening concentrated in high quality than for "fast-food- mass-consumer-mp3-cellphone-listener-to-go". Iīm not much intended in marketing my music for a "mass audience".

Interesting discussion here about panning with headphones :
In recording magazines I always read again  that panning via headphones is not recommended. They say, that you can hear  positions of the instruments better via speakers. Coz speakers can represent music three-dimensional (as we hear naturally). Phones can display the music just two-dimensional.
Phones are good for EQ-jobs coz they seperate from disturbing extern influences.
I know , thatīs totally oppositional to your experiences / opinions, but thatīs what pros wrote in the articles I read.
Fazit :
Coz weīre all "hobbyists" in musicmaking with limited skills, space, devices, knowledge and money, everyone of us may find his individual way of making his stuff audible to the (limited) public.
Weīll never get perfect, but we can try to get as close as possble to perfection. Thatīs what bandamp is about ; for exchanging experience, opinions, knowledge.

Thatīs why I love this site.   
#8July 3rd, 2012 · 04:07 AM
371 threads / 187 songs
3,348 posts
United Kingdom
Focusrite VRM
Has anyone had experience with this. Practical tool for a home studio

#9July 4th, 2012 · 12:53 PM
155 threads / 29 songs
1,936 posts
United States of America
I like to use a cheap set, of smaller near fields.. KRK , or mackie,,, JBL..
 If I'm going to really swing for a set of studio monitors ,, then I go take a look at what the pros use most.

 ns10's  are still used a lot but..

 I tend to like Genolic but

link to Chapman's Recording studio A room.. you can go over the list yourselves
http://www.chapmanrecording.com/Studio%20A.html
http://www.blacklodgerecording.com/studioa.html
http://www.wheeleraudio.com/equipment.html

Now go to top end studios

http://paramountrecording.com/studios/paramount-studio-a/

notice how many of those studio still have a set of yamaha NS10

I've seen some sets for as low as $350.00   not sure if they are totally worn out though.

 All that said.. If I didn;t have the money for the full set of Genolics,..........

I'D GET THESE. I have used them , they are in several smaller studios here in town,  they have a mic that can read the room, to help level the internal EQ , so your mixes have a flatter EQ response to the ear (which is what you want).
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=newsletter3_06&A=getItemDetail&Q=&sku=410506&is=REG

If you get with JBL , they also make a powered sub, that hooks in and works wth the EQ'n system  to really make your mixes sizzle, and you won't miss the low sub freq's  without them being to loud (so you don't over cut it back in the mix).  Excellent home studio and smaller project studio set ups.

all that said I use a set of older JBL 4208's  that I like really well for my conrol room
#10July 4th, 2012 · 03:12 PM
371 threads / 187 songs
3,348 posts
United Kingdom
toastedgoat wrote…
I like to use a cheap set, of smaller near fields.. KRK , or mackie,,, JBL..
 If I'm going to really swing for a set of studio monitors ,, then I go take a look at what the pros use most.

 ns10's  are still used a lot but..

 I tend to like Genolic but

link to Chapman's Recording studio A room.. you can go over the list yourselves
http://www.chapmanrecording.com/Studio%20A.html
http://www.blacklodgerecording.com/studioa.html
http://www.wheeleraudio.com/equipment.html

Now go to top end studios

http://paramountrecording.com/studios/paramount-studio-a/

notice how many of those studio still have a set of yamaha NS10

I've seen some sets for as low as $350.00   not sure if they are totally worn out though.

 All that said.. If I didn;t have the money for the full set of Genolics,..........

I'D GET THESE. I have used them , they are in several smaller studios here in town,  they have a mic that can read the room, to help level the internal EQ , so your mixes have a flatter EQ response to the ear (which is what you want).
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=newsletter3_06&A=getItemDetail&Q=&sku=410506&is=REG

If you get with JBL , they also make a powered sub, that hooks in and works wth the EQ'n system  to really make your mixes sizzle, and you won't miss the low sub freq's  without them being to loud (so you don't over cut it back in the mix).  Excellent home studio and smaller project studio set ups.

all that said I use a set of older JBL 4208's  that I like really well for my conrol room

Great info goat, I was thinking of you actually when I wrote this thread, seems my dream came true
In my research it seems like every quality studio has a set of Yamaha NS10's.  I wonder how they compare with the modern equivalents. Hopefully when I build my studio I'll be able to find somewhere where I can hear a variety of speakers, but my instincts are to go with Yamaha, as you said it's what the pro's use, having said all this, there are so many variables, it all depends on your room acoustics. I set-up my logitec speaker in the middle of my reception room for the first time yesterday, the satellite speakers sounded superb, but the Sub sounded pants. I normally have the sub sat at the same height as the satellite speakers and the bass is beautiful, full, round and punchy. The speakers I'm considering getting in the short term make a clone NS10, but the woofer is bigger, review say they are brassier.
#11July 5th, 2012 · 08:14 AM
110 threads / 55 songs
463 posts
Nepal
I've got the studiospares copy of the NS10 ok but not great but you should look up the Event TR6 Biamped Tuned Reference they are excellent for the price and made all the difference when mixing
another favourite of mine if you fancy going the vintage route are the Tanoy Little Red
#12July 10th, 2012 · 05:04 PM
77 threads / 59 songs
919 posts
Netherlands
I've been told the NS10's are the worst speakers so if it sounds right there it will sound better everywhere else..., they get used as reference, but if you have to listen to them all the time it becomes unpleasant...
just some info I got from others, i never heard them myself...
#13July 11th, 2012 · 02:08 AM
371 threads / 187 songs
3,348 posts
United Kingdom
MaxdB wrote…
I've been told the NS10's are the worst speakers so if it sounds right there it will sound better everywhere else..., they get used as reference, but if you have to listen to them all the time it becomes unpleasant...
just some info I got from others, i never heard them myself...
I've heard similar, but I would not label them as the "worst" speakers, rather "true sounding to the original source".
I've now decided to wait until my new studio is built before I get studio moniters speakers. hopefully at the time I will be able to to hear a few, but the moment I'm favouring The new Yamaha range with matching sub, simply because so many studios use them.
#14July 12th, 2012 · 02:55 AM
117 threads / 27 songs
1,057 posts
Germany
Iīve never heard the NS10, but I read always again they are "classics" and reference for most other nearfield monis.
I think itīs a good decision to wait until youīre building up your garden studio. Then many things may be clearer. Until then you can already visit a few Hifi-shops and make some audiometries. A kind of pre-selection.
#15July 13th, 2012 · 10:57 PM
155 threads / 29 songs
1,936 posts
United States of America
the very reason why the ns10's are used in so many studios,  is that they are not the best sounding speaker.. If I take a so so track, run it through some super top end speakers,  It;s still going to sound pretty good and the speakers will cover up some mixing flaws.   Just like summing your mix to mono,  you really should check your mixes into a mono set up/send.. it'll really bring out some flaws you my not have even notice in stereo mode.

i might but a set of NS10's  down the road,, right now I am shooting for some more guitar stuff.  I have to save up quite a bit.  to get some of the gear I'm after.  Old Vintage vox ac30,  Early Marshall superlead,  and  a Mesa MKV or  a Mesa MKIIC++
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