I try to listen to and vote and post a review on every song that enters into battle as i feel that is part of what bandamp is about.( you get nothing for winning but it lets you know if people will like your music/sounds) .

Some will, some won't if you upload your songs here you should understand that it will recieve good and bad votes and good and bad reviews. some will be just because they don't like that syle of music( sucks but that's seems to be the way most people vote, not just here but even in movies and pop/radio music as well).

I don't vote the battle with any idea of whose going to win I try to vote just bout the song 
Several songs have 90% or better from me and it's not about the artist to me it's bout the musicianship, quality of song writing, last but not least the recording quality. If there is an axceptionally good song but the recording is not great it still gets is high vote from me.

I feel like the biggest problem doesn't seem to come from unfair voting but lack of voting and posting reviews.

  If that is what you are doing here, I have to tell you, this is the WRONG place for you...

    Try MYspace... and MP3.com..  this is a site for MUSICIANS to HELP EACH OTHER.. NOT a place to promote yourself, and not a place to vote on your favorite bands.... not at all what it is .....   YOu have missed the point entirely..  Rating songs has NOTHING to do with what style of music your like, and if you say you caould not give a fair rating based on music talent because you don't like the genre, then you my friend are not a true Musician.. A TRUE musician is able to appreciate fully ALL STYLES of music, and the work and talent there... and although one is not a FAN of a genre, one can CERTAINLY give CONSTRUCTIVE CRITISIZM, and can APPRECIATE the work,effort, and talent... otherwise, you need to leave the music industry all together, because you will never be able to understand music....
             Jim K

Wow, Jim K., that takes the prize as the most emotional and misguided reply I've read in while. I like people commenting on my music. That seems to me a constructive way of learning more. However, I don't feel that rating a song helps much in this process. Why not have a feature where you can upload music, and people can comment on them freely, without all the rating antics?

I agree one can give constructive criticism to a song, but I am not so sure about the rating aspect. I can of course attempt objectively to rate formal and technical aspects of a song, but why would I want to do that? Why not just make suggestions, without having to put a 40% or 80% on a song? Objectivity is, naturally, a rational and admirable goal, but I think it naive to pretend that we can reach that, espicially in situations where one doesn't react strongly to a genre. Kant and Hume, and virtually every other major thinker, have rightly pointed out that aesthetic judgments are burdened with subjectivity.

Your "A true musician" comment is pure rethoric, and somewhat offensive at that, given that you have no ability accurately to draw such a conclusion from such little data.

Promoting one's music is precisely what everyone is doing here, depending on how, linguistically, you wish to define the term. I didn't mean it in the narrow sense of "selling" (though, again, I would hardly see this as an immoral or improper objective), but rather in the sense that I wish to make my music available to as many people in the world to listen to, and, if people wish to comment on it, they are free to do so, and, if it is constructive, I will certainly take note of it. I'm quite certain that I am not missing the essentials of what this website is about: namely, sharing your music and ideas with each other. What I suggested was that one make it an option to exclude one's songs from the rating (not comment) aspect of this site, which seems to me contrary to a collective effort to help each other out, but rather, panders to the egoistical part of our soul, which is just all too happy to participate in the public rat race of writing music that pleases majority opinion.

Judging the value and aesthetic merit of art by majority vote? I don't see it. And I really wished one could participate in this community without having to share in that aspect.

All the best,
M.

well, the battle is part of the website, and it requires songs to be rated.

I think it could be an idea to make the "song accepts rating" optional, just like the free download possibility. After all we want the artists themselves to be in final control of what happens to their music...

I don't think the rating bit is necessarily egotistic. I personally find it very useful to the see percentage going up or down on my song threads, since this is telling me something about how people are receiving the tune. You can call your music piece "art", but in the end, art exists to inspire or provoke thought and/or emotion, to communicate it's own aesthetic. Getting a rating to it could be a signal of how well this is translating to the observer... or would you rather have your observers become dehumanized - - without the egotistical parts telling them to either like or not like what they are presented?

Personally, I rate songs to construction, performance, production quality and marketability... I try to leave my own taste out of it - though with "marketability" I do not necessarily mean "possible sales figures", I mean... "is there an audience for this song?" or, in extremes: "can it form the basis of a new subculture? will it give birth to a whole new genre of sounds?", and the vision of this, naturally, takes shape through my own experience and views of the (music) world. So yeah my own taste is seeping through in there yeah.

Anyway, it's just how you define the rating system... But luckily there are only very few members on this site who judge songs only to what mood they're in... And trust me, their accounts tend to have a very short life span...

Your "A true musician" comment is pure rethoric, and somewhat offensive at that, given that you have no ability accurately to draw such a conclusion from such little data.

This came from your post on the other thread, about Genres where you said :
 
 I'm not interested in Singer-songwriter kind of material, so I don't really feel like I should be reviewing it, as I don't feel very objective, and am just not interested in commenting on music that is part of a genre I care very little about. Without genres I just have to browse and browse, wasting time, until I find something I like enough to review (as I don't see the point reviewing music that is part of an aesthetic one knows very little about) - i.e. what's the point of someone who loves DnB to review a classic rock song? Plus, it would just make it so much easier to find more music one actually identifies with.

This tells me you are not objective, and are not open to objectively and openly critiquing songs on here....

Wow, Jim K., that takes the prize as the most emotional and misguided reply I've read in while.

Prove me misguided... so far you have not.. You have only proven yourself to be closed minded..
Kant and Hume, and virtually every other major thinker, have rightly pointed out that aesthetic judgments are burdened with subjectivity.

   This is simply true in theory only.. but artists are more open and able to see things so much more abstractly, that they will and should see things more openly.. which means they can view things without the burden of subjectivity.. They see between the lines..

   you see having been in the music industry for over 20 years, I have studied musicians,  I have seen country stars doing hip hop, and pop stars doing opera..

   Many things will open up your ears, and you will see the true beauty in EVERY style of music.. If you are truly open to it... so, what I see is, you are someone who does not want to participate in the Bandamp system of rating, and critiquing, and you want to skip over all songs except the style you think is cool... that means you want a radio..
 
  You see, putting genres on here will ruin what makes Bandamp the coolest indie music site on the web.. exposure to styles you never thought of... exposure to sounds you normally wouldn't hear... this would be a travesty.... Please understand, I am not trying to attack you, I am simply reading what you wrote, it is there if you read your own post over, you will see why I answeredthe way I did.. it was not misguided, unless you didn't mean it to sound that way... but from where I (and may others I have spoken to) sit, it looks as though you don't want to participate and be a part of the community...
             

                       Jim K

This tells me you are not objective, and are not open to objectively and openly critiquing songs on here....

Precisely what I am saying. I don't think I can be objective, and, for that matter, neither do I think anyone else can be. Thus, I would rather comment on music I have a high familiarity with (not that I wouldn't comment on other things, when I feel like I could contribute something), in order to minimize subjectivity as much as possible.

This is simply true in theory only.. but artists are more open and able to see things so much more abstractly, that they will and should see things more openly.. which means they can view things without the burden of subjectivity.. They see between the lines.

You are seriously claiming that artists are less subjective because they see things more abstractley? I disagree, both with the claim that artists necessarily perceive the world more abstractley than non-artists, and certainly disagree with your inference that that fact would lead to more objectivity. You disagree with me. Cool. Let's leave it at that, for now.

you see having been in the music industry for over 20 years, I have studied musicians,  I have seen country stars doing hip hop, and pop stars doing opera..

Sorry, but that appeal to authority means little to me. People with stronger backgrounds have erred, too. And besides, many of us here, myself included, have equally strong, if not stronger backgrounds in various aspects relating to music.

Many things will open up your ears, and you will see the true beauty in EVERY style of music.. If you are truly open to it...

What a cliche. And yet, I wasn't even disputing this (though, that doesn't mean that I agree with that).

what I see is, you are someone who does not want to participate in the Bandamp system of rating, and critiquing, and you want to skip over all songs except the style you think is cool...

Well, I am letting you know that you would be wrong about not wanting to participate. As I stated many times over, I am very keen to comment and receive comments, just not throw numbers at people's work. In terms of styles, obviously I have, and will continue to listen and enjoy works, regardless of genre. However, I still think it would be useful as a quick way to find some musicians who share a certain aesthetic background to have this feature made available to artists. Having genres and listening to a variety of music outside of one's usual influences, are not mutually exclusive.

You see, putting genres on here will ruin what makes Bandamp (...)

I don't think this would have to be the inevitable outcome, which is why proposed it.

Just let me briefly summarize for the sake of clarity, what was most important to me:

a) genres could help (especially new members) find musicians that have similar asethetics, without in any way implying that this would lead to avoiding listening to other styles of music.

b) i love the idea of exchanging ideas about songs (my own and those of others), but am not fond of rating/grading a creative effort by another person. This seems to me fundamentally wrong to grade art like that, and cannot possibly help people create better art. If you want to let the artist you that you love their work, a "well done, i really loved that piece" goes a lot further than tagging on some percentage.

Wow, ofcourse it's impossible to become TRULY objective... but if you abandon the pursuit completely, then you're on a very wrong track here, mr. Enrighthouse! Maybe you should study Vedic logic... It has some very interesting concepts of objectivity/subjectivity.

People, we need to grow closer together. Not just on this site (I think it's doing a swell job at that btw) but we, the people of the earth, in it's entirety. The only way to do this is to Always Stay Open Minded. Do not look for only the familiar things... You will find yourself alienating from the stream of life, losing contact with people from other social groups... Losing sight of different cultures... You will become a stranger for yourself.

Allow yourself to be inspired and influenced by new experiences... After all when you were just a baby, everything was new and unfamiliar... And it formed the basis of who you are today... So why not keep growing?



But how can you tell a piece of music is of a familiar genre - how can you tell the artist involved shares your views of aesthetic, your philosophy? All you can do is listen to the tune and try to compare what you hear to the experiences of what works/not works with you... If you refuse to study the aesthetics of other artist, how can you EVER be objective AT ALL?


I certainly agree that artists are required to see things more abstractly... Perhaps mathematicians see things more abstractly aswell... I'm not so sure about this.


It comes with age and experience. The older you get, the more you will understand. This has to do something with the brain, absorbing more and more information as time progresses.

Anyway, I am for a large part with Jimk on this one, mr TheEnrightHouse... I really think you're being naieve in your statements... Please try to be a little more open minded... It'll do good for you.

But I am very much for genre searchability, I do not think this will ruin BandAMP at all. Just let the Audio Review arena be what it is, where everything is piled up together, regardless....

cheers...

PX (mod)

Ok. I'm abandoning this thread. Just in terms of the naivity comment, I highly suggest you study up on philosophy of art and aesthetics, and in a few years get back to me about "naive". Disagreement is fine, but you are talking to a person who has spent years of his life studying  aesthetics and music, and although my opinions might strike you as narrow minded, I think you are judging matters too quickly. I think if you carefully re-read my posts in a day or two, you might find that I am being much less narrow minded than you are accusing me of.

you are most certainly underestimating the level of personal developement of some of the members here, dude.

"but you are talking to a person who has spent years of his life studying  aesthetics and music"

And what am I? And what is JimK? Think before YOU judge matters too quickly... Or is your reasoning infallible??? If so, praise to you oh almighty one

I didn't use the word naive, you guys did.
I didn't question your musicianship, you did.
I'm not underestimating your level of personal development, you guys are, by calling my views narrow-minded.
I am not judging matters too quickly, but have thought long and hard on these issues and have arrived at conclusions other than yours.

Back off with your hostility and accusatory tone - it's unwarranted. Just accept the fact that I have other opinions than you do, which I have not arrived rashly at, without resorting to "not a true musician" and "narrow-minded", etc.

You are so much more judgmental in this thread than I am. So give me a break and let's focus on some of the actual suggestions made here, rather than the proposed character or alleged motivations of those who make them.

Agreed.


Again, we have a rating system because of the battle... One could say that it doesn't make sense to have art compete against eachother, but it can be fun to do. You don't want your songs to be rated? Fine, don't put them in the battle, and ignore any votes you do get, or ask people not to rate the song in the description since "untagging" the voting option is a feat not implemented atm.

Some people (like me) like to get their stuff rated. I do consider my music to be "art" but in the end, it is aimed at an audience and I can derive useful information from the avg. percentage I'm receiving, and not in the least, the number of votes. These votes come from people who have listened to the song and gave it some thought... or not, when they vote it down. In which case, I could opt to either ignore the dummy who just doesn't understand or think about why this may have happened and adjust my style to get my point across more effectively next time. True; I prefer elaborate critiques, but the vote system still works for me.

Again, we have a rating system because of the battle... One could say that it doesn't make sense to have art compete against eachother, but it can be fun to do. You don't want your songs to be rated? Fine, don't put them in the battle, and ignore any votes you do get, or ask people not to rate the song in the description since "untagging" the voting option is a feat not implemented atm.

Fair enough. I suppose that's more or less what I am doing now, but precisley for people like me, who feel uncomfortable with having their music graded, and who don't participate in battles, the "untagging" option could be handy. Also don't forget, this isn't just about me, but I assume a fair amount of artists - especially young and unexperienced - my be reluctant to join an otherwise excellent community precisely because having others grade their music might be a seriously discomforting thought. Just a suggestion, nothing more .

Some people (like me) like to get their stuff rated. I do consider my music to be "art" but in the end, it is aimed at an audience and I can derive useful information from the avg. percentage I'm receiving, and not in the least, the number of votes. These votes come from people who have listened to the song and gave it some thought... or not, when they vote it down. In which case, I could opt to either ignore the dummy who just doesn't understand or think about why this may have happened and adjust my style to get my point across more effectively next time. True; I prefer elaborate critiques, but the vote system still works for me.

Again, I totally see where you are coming from, but I don't think all musicians write music for the same reason, and hence "ratings" might not be as useful to all equally (in some cases, even discomforting). I personally don't take anything away from pure numbers, as I don't write music to please a majority, but write music which I know will not find many followers. I am Ok with that fact and am happy to know that there is a niche market out there who gets a great deal out of it. In a sense then, as a musician, lower ratings don't tell me anything new. Comments, however, do. When I get a 70% rating that teaches me nothing aside from "yeah, lot's of people won't react to this music, what's new", but comments, on the other hand, can do so much more. For one, comments give you an answer to a far more important question than "do people xyz like my music", namely "WHY do or do not people like this" and "what can be done to improve it?".

Now, I understand that many people actually find it valuable to learn how many people like their music and what overall response they are getting, as this can be very useful in figuring out all sorts of things, such as how marketable is one's music, what songs are people reacting to strongest (ie. making decisions for releasing singles, etc.). But, of course, many don't write music for the purpose of widespread commerical success - ie. myself. What's most valuable to me are specific criticisms, such as "hard to hear the vibraphone", or "too much reverb on vocal", or "lyrics come off too corny", etc. etc.

So all I am saying is that there is of course widespread use for ratings, just that this is not true for all of us (I am assuming I am not entirely alone here), and that some - again, myself included - are positively distracted by rating music with numbers, and, potentially, feel more reluctant because of it to engage in an otherwise exciting communal experience.

In conclusion then, I still think the choice of having one's music rated would actually bring more people into the bandamp community, without in any way taking away from or  diminishing the rating system for those who learn from it. It's just a way to make more people happy, without lessening the experience for those happy with the way things are. It's nothing but a suggestion to include more people - not a suggestion that threatens to change the way things work for those who enjoy ratings.