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#1November 10th, 2007 · 04:22 PM
65 threads / 2 songs
1,062 posts
United States of America
So Im curious....
Now that most of the responsibility, of overseeing improvements to the site, has been handed over to you, Jim, what are you doing with it?  I ask, because Ive heard very little since the announcement that it was being handed over?  I was really hoping that this would spur alot of excitment and development, but ive yet to hear much other than what has been announced?
#2November 10th, 2007 · 08:41 PM
160 threads / 88 songs
1,666 posts
United States of America
well..
I have actually talked with a couple programmers. but no real changes have been made yet, for many reasons. Not the least of which is the fact that the code that is here needs cleaned up before you can change and add stuff.

 Then also, I am being VERY careful about who gets access to the database, I mean, we need people who know not only PHP but Unix. We have been given permission to make changes, and that is great. And we can make changes, but what changes are to be made first? which ones are more important than the others? So, right now, I  think we need to concentrate on getting a board of directors together. I was hoping to have the Non profit orginization stuff together before we start with the Board of Directors but, if you all think we should start this now, then that is fine...

   I will say, Avinashv has looked at the code, and thinks the polling should be easy to do, but he is lacking time right now. Also the code REALLY needs cleaned up...

        JimK
#3November 11th, 2007 · 04:06 AM
117 threads / 54 songs
3,065 posts
Netherlands
I think we should get the board thing up and running ASAP, because we need to make decisions on the direction we'll be heading. I do feel that the programmers and the board members need to be two seperate teams (for safety reason; wouldn't want to have any power abuse issues - not that I want to sound paranoid)

So, that's what I have to say about that... BandAMP being an official Non Profit Organization will probably take several months to become that... So let's put the board together before, I don't see why we shouldn't
#4November 11th, 2007 · 12:32 PM
64 threads / 13 songs
669 posts
United States of America
I've got the code.  In actual volume, it isn't as much as I had though, but it is extremely messy, very poorly commented, and all functionality is done through a variety of hacks and inline SQL statements.  If this was the summer, or I wasn't a full-time student, I would re-write everything.  Not only would it help me know what is happening better, but it would enable changes to be made without having to hack it into the system.

As for reality, I think minor changes can be done.  Note I said done, not that I can do everything.  I really am short on time, and I am still making my way through the code, chunks at a time and still really having a large segment of sections where I have little to no idea what something is doing.

About the board: this is a really sticky situation because you're giving certain members "power" over others.  I have no idea how this is going to be handled, and I am interested to see how this will turn out.
#5November 11th, 2007 · 12:51 PM
54 threads / 29 songs
1,552 posts
United Kingdom
Avi... I wouldn't be too worried over having a board of directors; yes I suppose they would have "power" over others in a way, but realistically it's the only way to run an international non-profit (or any other type) of medium to large public organisation.  BandAmp is a long, long way from being the biggest site out there on the WWW but in terms of an organization I'd say that nearly 1500 members makes it pretty large.

Decisions made by a board of directors have to be agreed by the majority, and typically (if we're going to do this correctly) can't be made unless a specific number of directors actually discuss it and vote.  We all seem to want this and I think it's a great opportunity for the site members, and will be the best for BandAmp too.

As far as you re-writing code is concerned, I'm just so pleased that you're both able and willing to do it (and that goes for the others that are being granted access rights by JimK) - it's not something I can do, so I'm mightily impressed.  I certainly wouldn't expect any changes by a volunteer group of techno experts to happen over-night - there are tonnes of people that give to this site what they can and when they can to keep it going; work and life just gets in the way sometimes!  You guys are no different.

So keep plugging away... what ever you manage to achieve in what ever time-frame gets the big thumbs up from me!


Jim AC
#6November 11th, 2007 · 04:58 PM
64 threads / 13 songs
669 posts
United States of America
PuppetXeno wrote…
I think we should get the board thing up and running ASAP, because we need to make decisions on the direction we'll be heading. I do feel that the programmers and the board members need to be two seperate teams (for safety reason; wouldn't want to have any power abuse issues - not that I want to sound paranoid)

So, that's what I have to say about that... BandAMP being an official Non Profit Organization will probably take several months to become that... So let's put the board together before, I don't see why we shouldn't :)

So, as a programmer right now, I don't have the chance of having executive say? Well, then I'm already off the position as a programmer.
#7November 11th, 2007 · 05:20 PM
127 threads / 43 songs
2,808 posts
Puerto Rico
avinashv wrote…
PuppetXeno wrote…
I think we should get the board thing up and running ASAP, because we need to make decisions on the direction we'll be heading. I do feel that the programmers and the board members need to be two seperate teams (for safety reason; wouldn't want to have any power abuse issues - not that I want to sound paranoid)

So, that's what I have to say about that... BandAMP being an official Non Profit Organization will probably take several months to become that... So let's put the board together before, I don't see why we shouldn't :)

So, as a programmer right now, I don't have the chance of having executive say? Well, then I'm already off the position as a programmer.
Avi Sorry man I agree with Px ,Imho thats like giving you the final say.Imagine if you don't agree with something  then what??The board decides but you don't  agree and you're the one doing the code so we get stuck right???Besides I don't think you should be the only one with the code by the way nor anybody else I should add!!
!!Honestly I'm not out to create an issue about this,is not personal!!!!
#8November 11th, 2007 · 05:41 PM
64 threads / 13 songs
669 posts
United States of America
Marino wrote…
avinashv wrote…
PuppetXeno wrote…
I think we should get the board thing up and running ASAP, because we need to make decisions on the direction we'll be heading. I do feel that the programmers and the board members need to be two seperate teams (for safety reason; wouldn't want to have any power abuse issues - not that I want to sound paranoid)

So, that's what I have to say about that... BandAMP being an official Non Profit Organization will probably take several months to become that... So let's put the board together before, I don't see why we shouldn't :)

So, as a programmer right now, I don't have the chance of having executive say? Well, then I'm already off the position as a programmer.
Avi Sorry man I agree with Px ,Imho thats like giving you the final say.Imagine if you don't agree with something  then what??The board decides but you don't  agree and you're the one doing the code so we get stuck right???Besides I don't think you should be the only one with the code by the way nor anybody else I should add!!
!!Honestly I'm not out to create an issue about this,is not personal!!!!

Actually, if I don't agree with something and don't want to do it, nothing is stopping me from not implementing it anyway.  What you are doing is not giving me a choice.  Until this is resolved, consider this an official resignation from the position of the programmer---or as officially as I was sitting in that seat.  As much as I want to be able to have a hand in making changes here, I'd much rather a chance at getting onto the board or actually having a voice.  I am sorry, but I am not going to be a mindless drone churning out code.

I understand that this isn't personal, and I hope that my response to this is also taken as such.
#9November 11th, 2007 · 06:20 PM
54 threads / 29 songs
1,552 posts
United Kingdom
Don't think it's quite the way you're seeing it Avi.... the Board of Directors (I expect) would agree the changes that would be made and their priority.  These would only be after they've been requested by members on the Amp itself... so everyone has a voice.
How any code is written, or how the changes are implemented, has to be the decision of the coder - otherwise it's ham-stringing you.
Is this not the way a well organized enterprise is run?

As an addendum to the above, and part in response to PX and Jim K's posts; to me it makes sense to have at least one coder on the board of directors - otherwise there could be some unmanageable decisions made.

Jim A
#10November 11th, 2007 · 06:34 PM
127 threads / 43 songs
2,808 posts
Puerto Rico
As an addendum to the above, and part in response to PX and Jim K's posts; to me it makes sense to have at least one coder on the board of directors - otherwise there could be some unmanageable decisions made.

Jim A[/quote]

I believe that is very true!!
MARINO!
#11November 11th, 2007 · 06:54 PM
115 threads / 18 songs
1,414 posts
United States of America
i also agree-- the perspective of the coder on the board would be extremely useful, as he could readily gauge the level of difficulty to implent said features.

haha... be happy Avi, the code used to be messier... Mud wrote it all himself, and while he did a good, functional job, it wasn't very clean.  entheon then took over a few years back and rewrote it.  I had seen segments of the (at the time) smaller code, and lemme tell ya something, friends... it was impossible to read.  It had function calls that were like 7 lines long, as it was putting all calculations in the fuction's arguements.  It worked, but it was impossible to debug.

anyway, point it... it's better now, but it certainly needs work.

i agree that at least one coder needs to be on the board.  heck, i'm not sure if we're going to have to have more than one, but given that you're not full of time right now, Avi, perhaps breaking the job into at least 2 pieces would be nice.  you'll just have to agree on a coding standard between yourselves.
#12November 11th, 2007 · 07:27 PM
160 threads / 88 songs
1,666 posts
United States of America
avinashv wrote…
Marino wrote…
avinashv wrote…
PuppetXeno wrote…
I think we should get the board thing up and running ASAP, because we need to make decisions on the direction we'll be heading. I do feel that the programmers and the board members need to be two seperate teams (for safety reason; wouldn't want to have any power abuse issues - not that I want to sound paranoid)

So, that's what I have to say about that... BandAMP being an official Non Profit Organization will probably take several months to become that... So let's put the board together before, I don't see why we shouldn't :)

So, as a programmer right now, I don't have the chance of having executive say? Well, then I'm already off the position as a programmer.
Avi Sorry man I agree with Px ,Imho thats like giving you the final say.Imagine if you don't agree with something  then what??The board decides but you don't  agree and you're the one doing the code so we get stuck right???Besides I don't think you should be the only one with the code by the way nor anybody else I should add!!
!!Honestly I'm not out to create an issue about this,is not personal!!!!

Actually, if I don't agree with something and don't want to do it, nothing is stopping me from not implementing it anyway.  What you are doing is not giving me a choice.  Until this is resolved, consider this an official resignation from the position of the programmer---or as officially as I was sitting in that seat.  As much as I want to be able to have a hand in making changes here, I'd much rather a chance at getting onto the board or actually having a voice.  I am sorry, but I am not going to be a mindless drone churning out code.

I understand that this isn't personal, and I hope that my response to this is also taken as such.

Hey..  I think you aren't understanding. The programmers aren't goingto be mindless drones. They way I see it, is this, a change is needed, The board brings this change to the programmers to check feasibility, and see what the programmer thinks is the best way to implement this change, once we get the feedback from the programmers, we either scrap the idea, because it isn't feasible or we then take it to the people. Some changes would be made directly by the board of directors and the programmers. It is just the Board of Directors would make certain decisions as far as financial or such... For me, it's just keeping it separate makes sense from a fiscal standpoint. If we end up getting too big, and getting some $$$ coming in, we would need people to give more time, and could possibly end up paying a small salary, this will mean programmers and board members would get paid, if we have some board memebers who are programmers, then how do they get paid? see the dilemma? I mean, say BOD members get $50 a month, and work for Bandamp 60 hours a month. And Programmers work 30 hours a month and get paid $40 a month.  Now, if someone is both programmer and BOD, how much is fair? Many people come up with many different numbers here. And if your programming, can you truly give all your efforts to the BOD when needed? and Vice Versa? See how it goes? The Programmers are the most important people in the Bandamp Heirarchy, as they can make or break Bandamp. But the BOD must me implemented properly, and separately.. I hope this clears up at least my take on this..

           JimK
#13November 11th, 2007 · 07:34 PM
160 threads / 88 songs
1,666 posts
United States of America
sorry
I was writing that, and got interrupted, and had to finish it much later. I didn't realize so much had already been posted since AVI's post, Some of them are saying essentially what I am, except, that I don't think the programmer should be on the Board, I think they should be separate. I think if they see a change that needs done, I mean big change then bring it to the BOD's attention, and let us know what kind of timeline and such you need, and any downtime that would need done, and we can decide how and when to approach it. THat sort of thing, other changes, some bug or something, can be done without even consulting the board. If it's something that could be a nice convience thing, that doesn't affect the layout, or functionality too much, even then, I would say, go for it. This isn't going to be a situation where the BOD makes ALL Decisions bar none. And if the BOD makes a decision, you as a programmer diagree with, then it goes to the people, if it isn't something the site as a whole has already voted on..  see?

       JimK
#14November 11th, 2007 · 09:13 PM
115 threads / 18 songs
1,414 posts
United States of America
okay, putting it that way, i can agree with JimkDaAdtman's point of view.  I think the way he's proposed for sync-ing the decisions with the programmers is a great idea, all things considered.  I guess we need to have a long-range point of view here (hence the comments about the $$) and plan for expansion.  We don't want to instantly expand and then crash, but this ought to be set up very well with the future in mind.

I'm going to agree with JimK's above posts.  Programmers shouldn't be drones, as they carry a vital opinion about the coding of the site, but it'll be more effective in the end if these titles of BOD and prog'er probably shouldn't get too mixed up, even though the programmer(s) will have to be consulted (for obvious reasons)
#15November 11th, 2007 · 10:45 PM
64 threads / 13 songs
669 posts
United States of America
A case of not saying what you mean?  Maybe when people are talking about something that carries as much weight as this, people should fully flesh out their ideas, right?

As it stands, I am going to hold of putting time and making commitments into this until things are sorted out a little.
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