| Is it music if you don't play an instrument? |
I have a question I have never had a really satisfactory answer to: if you play a song on the guitar or a piano, it is usually well regarded even if badly played. However, if you take the same song and program it in a computer, then have the machine generate a mp3, that is faking it, and you get no status for having done so even if the performance is perfect. Why?
How about the in-between case where you record some sections, and then take them as samples and put them into the computer, then add other material. Does that have any value? Is it skill, when you are clicking a mouse instead of using a plectrum? Why?
What does it mean to be a musician? Do you have to flaunt finger calluses or swear that there was no "strum synching" - yeah, maybe it's the equivalent of Nilli Vanilli style lip synching, except with a guitar or keyboard. You're just faking it if you use the piano roll rather than manual keyboard entry. How about if it is completely original and composed for the computer: is that a real instrument?
So what's the deal? Is it real? How about for Jason Becker who continues to compose, even though Lou Gehrig's disease robbed him of the ability to move, much less play? Is it music if you can't play it yourself?
How about the in-between case where you record some sections, and then take them as samples and put them into the computer, then add other material. Does that have any value? Is it skill, when you are clicking a mouse instead of using a plectrum? Why?
What does it mean to be a musician? Do you have to flaunt finger calluses or swear that there was no "strum synching" - yeah, maybe it's the equivalent of Nilli Vanilli style lip synching, except with a guitar or keyboard. You're just faking it if you use the piano roll rather than manual keyboard entry. How about if it is completely original and composed for the computer: is that a real instrument?
So what's the deal? Is it real? How about for Jason Becker who continues to compose, even though Lou Gehrig's disease robbed him of the ability to move, much less play? Is it music if you can't play it yourself?
Music is a vibration of sound.
We, in our human development have learnt to create varying complexities of sounds that express/explain/translate our varying complexities of 'developed' thoughts and emotions.
So it's all music 'whether you like it or not'! lol
I don't agree that :
"if you take the same song and program it in a computer, then have the machine generate a mp3, that is faking it, and you get no status for having done so even if the performance is perfect."
How many people regularly party and deeply appreciate digitally designed songs?
They are songs because they are emotional paths for us to follow!
I'd say, if it moves you it's real!
We, in our human development have learnt to create varying complexities of sounds that express/explain/translate our varying complexities of 'developed' thoughts and emotions.
So it's all music 'whether you like it or not'! lol
I don't agree that :
"if you take the same song and program it in a computer, then have the machine generate a mp3, that is faking it, and you get no status for having done so even if the performance is perfect."
How many people regularly party and deeply appreciate digitally designed songs?
They are songs because they are emotional paths for us to follow!
I'd say, if it moves you it's real!
| music |
Ahhh the old questions rears it's ugly head again.. Like a venomous snake it returns... Ok, I have done, and still do both types of music, digital and I play it myself.. It is all music.. I found that it takes much musical skill and knowledge to put those little dots together with your mouse and make a song that sounds good... So, yes it is music...
Jimk
Jimk
Music=The art organizing notes in a pattern within a frame of time.
If you write with pencil,pen,charcoal,world perfect,feathers,etc,etc ,you would consider it a written pattern Regardless of the media right?
Imagine trying to read another language,is it still a pattern right?Do you understand it?
Well this could me the problem ,lack of understanding formulates opinions based on the limited level of comprehension(not seeing the big picture as oppose to being ignorant).In theory if music is the organization of pitches(notes) within a time frame then instruments really don't play a roll on what defines music Hence"instrument".They are just the pencils and pens that we use,get it!!
Now we could define the type of instrument sound and favor a particular timber from within the context again of a song ,but that shouldn't be confused with what is music as maybe what music sound preference do you have.Anyway good topic!!!Digital, Analogue played and programed songs are all good they all share the same musical notes and the organizing patterns!
Marino
If you write with pencil,pen,charcoal,world perfect,feathers,etc,etc ,you would consider it a written pattern Regardless of the media right?
Imagine trying to read another language,is it still a pattern right?Do you understand it?
Well this could me the problem ,lack of understanding formulates opinions based on the limited level of comprehension(not seeing the big picture as oppose to being ignorant).In theory if music is the organization of pitches(notes) within a time frame then instruments really don't play a roll on what defines music Hence"instrument".They are just the pencils and pens that we use,get it!!
Now we could define the type of instrument sound and favor a particular timber from within the context again of a song ,but that shouldn't be confused with what is music as maybe what music sound preference do you have.Anyway good topic!!!Digital, Analogue played and programed songs are all good they all share the same musical notes and the organizing patterns!
Marino
next thing I will probably do is to sample a f*rt of an elephant and let it flow through some fx gear and computer filters. then I have music. is it worth it to publish? of course. this is my art of organizing notes in a pattern within a frame of time (cool explain).
computers can do that as well or you can write a program to create note events into a midi pattern. press play or save it to mp3 its music ... yay
computers can do that as well or you can write a program to create note events into a midi pattern. press play or save it to mp3 its music ... yay
TritonKeyboarder wrote…
next thing I will probably do is to sample a f*rt of an elephant and let it flow through some fx gear and computer filters. then I have music. is it worth it to publish? of course. this is my art of organizing notes in a pattern within a frame of time (cool explain).
computers can do that as well or you can write a program to create note events into a midi pattern. press play or save it to mp3 its music ... yay :razz:
That would be awesome!Maybe I'll add some filtered burps just for detailing!!!
| An elephant's ... |
That sounds like a candidate for Dr. Demento to me. For my own pleasure I did create a techno piece where all of the samples were barnyard animals excepting the drums. I've never released it, nor would I play it in performance, but I have used it to make my kids laugh. I think it's music, although the issues of idiom, quality and appropriateness for the audience come into play. The issue is processing the idea through a human mind. The writers of algorithmic composition programs are much to blame for the confusion here, I suspect.
Incidentally, the best filtering for burps is when you reverse the .wav so it runs backwards, then apply selected delay filtering - sounds like nothing that should be on earth. As a teenager me and my friends had access to an old reel to reel tape player which would switch between different playback speeds. we would burp into the mike at 78 then play it back at 33. Tons of fun when you're 13...
Incidentally, the best filtering for burps is when you reverse the .wav so it runs backwards, then apply selected delay filtering - sounds like nothing that should be on earth. As a teenager me and my friends had access to an old reel to reel tape player which would switch between different playback speeds. we would burp into the mike at 78 then play it back at 33. Tons of fun when you're 13...
aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooo the old argument revived!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May be an overreaction right there. But what the heck. I think it's always good to look back on something a while after you think you've got it figured out.
Is it music? Yes. I don't care where the sound comes from or who composed it. I'd say that if you just programmed the notes with a piano roll on FL Studio then you should get just as much composing credit as the next guy. But the thing that you shouldn't get credit for is the performance. There is a difference between musician and composer, and a big one. A musician is a performer, not just a writer. A composer doesn't have to be able to pluck for crap to write a brilliant piece. Either way, it is still music and can be great music.
May be an overreaction right there. But what the heck. I think it's always good to look back on something a while after you think you've got it figured out.
Is it music? Yes. I don't care where the sound comes from or who composed it. I'd say that if you just programmed the notes with a piano roll on FL Studio then you should get just as much composing credit as the next guy. But the thing that you shouldn't get credit for is the performance. There is a difference between musician and composer, and a big one. A musician is a performer, not just a writer. A composer doesn't have to be able to pluck for crap to write a brilliant piece. Either way, it is still music and can be great music.
| But what is a performance? |
OK, then do we give a PC performance credit? I notice that bands like Portishead and Curve give the humans credit for sequenced drums, so is it a performance if they trigger pre-encoded midi tracks on stage? I'm willing to bet that the sequencing is as original as a drum machine can be. Also by the logic of the performer being part of the definition of a musician, you are shutting out Jason Becker again. If you lost your hands and were unable to perform without mechanical assistance, would you suddenly stop being a musician?
I don't mean to be a pain with this, but I really feel that to be a musician means that you have music in your head and have found some way to let it out. I suppose that what I am doing with classical music is called arranging, as I did not compose the piece, and that the laptop gets the performing credit, even if I play the notes into the PC and then use the piano roll to clean up the, ahem, performance.
Where do you draw the line?
I don't mean to be a pain with this, but I really feel that to be a musician means that you have music in your head and have found some way to let it out. I suppose that what I am doing with classical music is called arranging, as I did not compose the piece, and that the laptop gets the performing credit, even if I play the notes into the PC and then use the piano roll to clean up the, ahem, performance.
Where do you draw the line?
| re: But what is a performance? |
Stringbreaker wrote…
Also by the logic of the performer being part of the definition of a musician, you are shutting out Jason Becker again. If you lost your hands and were unable to perform without mechanical assistance, would you suddenly stop being a musician?
Well, as mean as it may sound, I would say yes. But he is a perfectly respectable composer, and that's no less respectable than being a musician. I have no discrimination against someone who doesn't perform. Programming a song into a computer that generates it is no different than writing notes on a piece of paper and handing it to a professional symphony to play.
| re: But what is a performance? |
Stringbreaker wrote…
Where do you draw the line?
It's all one big mushy pudding, and the closer you get to the middle the warmer it gets.
So if you jump up, throw your hand in the air and go "wwAAAwww, I feeeeel good ! didldldldi!
You'd be spot on. (from a physical / human point of view)
But if you sit there contriving algorithmically enhanced clone drone simply to skin the masses (with no other meaningful purpose),
Then your far off the mark, in/with every respect!
Check out takaminerbb13, some of his latest songs I know are created using 'real' samples!
Takas good BTW! like Car Noises
I'd like to throw two concepts into this thread,
First the Wizard of Oz, though he was seen as false behind his machine, he was still able go give 'hope', 'strength', 'inspiration' etc.
Secondly the character Golum (LOTR) as seen in the film, there was an argument somewhere about whether or not 'it' should receive an Oscar. I would have given them all an Oscar, the actor and the effects team, the 'creation' of the character on screen is amazing!
So is it real 'music' or not !!??
In my Universe it is!
| I say.. |
Ok, will throw my hay-penny's worth in here..
reading this thread all the way through again,
I first found myself wanting to revert back to
the indian type thinking.. for example, There is
music every where you hear it.. in a rushing brook,
the cicadas laying a basson style sound for the
crickets to chirp out a rhythm and both providing
the bottom end to the birds singing covering the
top end of natures orchestra.. are those things
musical instruments? well depends on how you
choose to look at it.. how bout the cereal commerical
where the family uses every sound to form a
musical rhythm number??
then I re-read kings post and it really blew me
away each time I read it.. I for one have my
reasons for not being able to get past the fact
that a song is rap, or hard core techno, speed metal
punk and so on.. but not using this chance to sneak
in any attempts to help hardcore gangsta rappers
mend their ways.. there's still plenty of time for that
where it belongs... and yes, those forms are music
too.. can't take that away from them.. it just don't
appeal to me...
will continue this at a later date..
reading this thread all the way through again,
I first found myself wanting to revert back to
the indian type thinking.. for example, There is
music every where you hear it.. in a rushing brook,
the cicadas laying a basson style sound for the
crickets to chirp out a rhythm and both providing
the bottom end to the birds singing covering the
top end of natures orchestra.. are those things
musical instruments? well depends on how you
choose to look at it.. how bout the cereal commerical
where the family uses every sound to form a
musical rhythm number??
then I re-read kings post and it really blew me
away each time I read it.. I for one have my
reasons for not being able to get past the fact
that a song is rap, or hard core techno, speed metal
punk and so on.. but not using this chance to sneak
in any attempts to help hardcore gangsta rappers
mend their ways.. there's still plenty of time for that
where it belongs... and yes, those forms are music
too.. can't take that away from them.. it just don't
appeal to me...
will continue this at a later date..
| Music is? |
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