| Recording With Distortion |
Heya, i've been recording with my band now for a little while and i've more or less gotten all the kinks out of recording. We mostly play rock music, but before i get too far in here is the kit we use to record:
Mixer: Behringer Eurorack UB1202 (http://www.music123.com/Behringer-Eurorack-UB1202-i83059.music)
Microphones: Samson R21 Mic (http://www.music123.com/Samson-R21-3--Mic-Package-i61705.music)
Computer Recording Program: Kristal Audio
We also run the sound through a systems mixer to get it out through big speakers for playback but that in no way affects the recording quality.
Now though the kit may be cheap (the mixer and microphones totalled out to equivalent US150$ not including cables) the sound quality is almost always amazing. We triple mic the drums (two hanging, one on the kick) and get a really good sound from that. The vocals are raelly clear, and the clean sound on the guitar is.
Our problem is two fold however. Firstly, the sound quality for the guitars is much better when we mic the guitar amp at a range of about 2 meters instead of plugging the amp directly into the mixer. Secondly when distortion is used (with the direct plug in its terrible) with a mic it sounds really good when played back through our giant speakers in teh basement, however when you try and play it back through any other type of speakers or headphones it sounds fuzzy like it is too distorted compared to the crunch we normally get. Any ideas on how to get rid of this? On a few side notes the mics are all directional mics, the amp i use is a Hughes and Kettner Edition Blue 60R and I modify the clean sound with a range of Boss pedals (OD-3, MD-2, MT-2, BD-2).
Hope i haven't overwhelmed this post with information, and I will try to post an example up once i have reviewed some songs.
Mixer: Behringer Eurorack UB1202 (http://www.music123.com/Behringer-Eurorack-UB1202-i83059.music)
Microphones: Samson R21 Mic (http://www.music123.com/Samson-R21-3--Mic-Package-i61705.music)
Computer Recording Program: Kristal Audio
We also run the sound through a systems mixer to get it out through big speakers for playback but that in no way affects the recording quality.
Now though the kit may be cheap (the mixer and microphones totalled out to equivalent US150$ not including cables) the sound quality is almost always amazing. We triple mic the drums (two hanging, one on the kick) and get a really good sound from that. The vocals are raelly clear, and the clean sound on the guitar is.
Our problem is two fold however. Firstly, the sound quality for the guitars is much better when we mic the guitar amp at a range of about 2 meters instead of plugging the amp directly into the mixer. Secondly when distortion is used (with the direct plug in its terrible) with a mic it sounds really good when played back through our giant speakers in teh basement, however when you try and play it back through any other type of speakers or headphones it sounds fuzzy like it is too distorted compared to the crunch we normally get. Any ideas on how to get rid of this? On a few side notes the mics are all directional mics, the amp i use is a Hughes and Kettner Edition Blue 60R and I modify the clean sound with a range of Boss pedals (OD-3, MD-2, MT-2, BD-2).
Hope i haven't overwhelmed this post with information, and I will try to post an example up once i have reviewed some songs.
The R21 is a vocal mic, perhaps poorly designed to handle the frequencies and/or SPL (sound pressure level) from a guitar cab.
I would suggest getting something like a Shure SM-57, close micing at the guitar cab grill, and then running it through an EQ unit so that you can remove bassy/low mid rumblings and boxy overtones, and retain the clarity that you want within the guitar tone. Next, get it through a compressor, and you will have a guitar sound with balls and punch that still retains clarity.
Also, your assumption that running the mic through a cheap behringer mixer won't affect the quality is unfortunately not the case. Bear in mind that the cheap preamps on this unit may be sufficient for other requirements - but for an instrument with such a wide-frequency grunt - such as a distorted guitar - they won't cut it.
For greater clarity and warmth while recording, I suggest a good valve preamp such as the excellent ART Studio V3 (if you are on a budget) as a minimum.
Finally, you have already confessed to a big potential problem with your sound and perhaps not realised it? I've done the same, I assure you! I have 120w hifi speakers with a 140w Sony Amplifier...
Mixing on 'giant speakers in teh basement' is probably not a good idea. These speakers are probably 'designed' to make things sound good like home hifi speakers generally are. Your mix will then tend to sound different through anything else.
My best reccommendation (unless you can afford some decent studio monitor speakers) is to get some decent headphones (eg Sennheiser) that dont colour the sound too much and mix using these.
Hope this is of some use
I would suggest getting something like a Shure SM-57, close micing at the guitar cab grill, and then running it through an EQ unit so that you can remove bassy/low mid rumblings and boxy overtones, and retain the clarity that you want within the guitar tone. Next, get it through a compressor, and you will have a guitar sound with balls and punch that still retains clarity.
Also, your assumption that running the mic through a cheap behringer mixer won't affect the quality is unfortunately not the case. Bear in mind that the cheap preamps on this unit may be sufficient for other requirements - but for an instrument with such a wide-frequency grunt - such as a distorted guitar - they won't cut it.
For greater clarity and warmth while recording, I suggest a good valve preamp such as the excellent ART Studio V3 (if you are on a budget) as a minimum.
Finally, you have already confessed to a big potential problem with your sound and perhaps not realised it? I've done the same, I assure you! I have 120w hifi speakers with a 140w Sony Amplifier...
Mixing on 'giant speakers in teh basement' is probably not a good idea. These speakers are probably 'designed' to make things sound good like home hifi speakers generally are. Your mix will then tend to sound different through anything else.
My best reccommendation (unless you can afford some decent studio monitor speakers) is to get some decent headphones (eg Sennheiser) that dont colour the sound too much and mix using these.
Hope this is of some use
Thats amazing, much more than i expected. I'm probably gonna take some of those suggestions and put them into use, but not all as i am a poor bugger beyond all belief. I reckon if I invest in the equipment to get the guitar sounding good then the rest is pretty good as it is now. Many thanks for you help again; infinetly better advice than i have recieved elsewhere.
Nick
Nick
| My 2 cents |
With all due respect DaveUK, as opposed to spending any more money than you need to, you can get a couple of good mic's and record using a simple stereo feed ad that's all; no additional equipment needed.
If you decide to mic the guitar, kick on the distortion as you're watching the Behringer's *Peak* LED just right of the PAN pot. Continuously palm mute a power chord at the 7th fret of the 6th string (the low frequencies tend to pop out a bit more in that position for some reason) and watch the *Peak* LED for clipping. Turn up the *Gain* pot until your guitar channel starts to clip strong. Then lower it until there's only an occasional blink. That should cut off the "fizz" you're hearing. Be sure you have an decent clean-to-dirty level on your amp; we don't want the distortion overpowering the mix.
Usually hanging a couple of mic's over the kit is good enough and sometimes results in great drum tracks. And good thinking by mic'ing the bass drum. Oh, use the same 'clip-bleed' technique as the guitar. The louder your mixer's gain is before clipping, the less noise you're gonna have on your recording.
Hopefully this'll help you guys! Hopefully I read and understood the predicament before posting a reply!(?)
If you decide to mic the guitar, kick on the distortion as you're watching the Behringer's *Peak* LED just right of the PAN pot. Continuously palm mute a power chord at the 7th fret of the 6th string (the low frequencies tend to pop out a bit more in that position for some reason) and watch the *Peak* LED for clipping. Turn up the *Gain* pot until your guitar channel starts to clip strong. Then lower it until there's only an occasional blink. That should cut off the "fizz" you're hearing. Be sure you have an decent clean-to-dirty level on your amp; we don't want the distortion overpowering the mix.
Usually hanging a couple of mic's over the kit is good enough and sometimes results in great drum tracks. And good thinking by mic'ing the bass drum. Oh, use the same 'clip-bleed' technique as the guitar. The louder your mixer's gain is before clipping, the less noise you're gonna have on your recording.
Hopefully this'll help you guys! Hopefully I read and understood the predicament before posting a reply!(?)
Yep I know you can easily mic the guitar without a separate preamp, my ideas were just to be picked and choosed from. It is true, though, that cheap mixer preamps are classically noisy compared to, say, a Mackie - so even a fairly cheap (but decent) mic preamp is worth considering. Some of the cheap ones can be noisy themselves, tho!
And no, 'the louder your mixer's gain is' before clipping, the less noise you are gonna have on your recording is a little untrue.
Technically, the gain you are adding at the mixer is amplifying the noise floor by every bit as much as it is amplifying the recording signal. So yes, by all means increase the gain pot as much as you can before clipping - but the more you have to increase it, the more noise you are going to have.
Thus, it is much better to get the signal level as strong as possible BEFORE you use the mixer preamps - ie. use a more sensitive mic that can handle a beefier sound pressure level (db volume at source) and an external preamp... than it is to boost it too much using the onboard pre's.
There are many ways to mic a guitar amp. The closer you are to the grill, the more 'direct' the sound. The further away, the more room ambience you are going to get.
You will find that close micing (touching the grill or within 2 inches) will give the most crisp sound. However, for more depth and depending on the room you may want to move away by about two metres. An interesting trick is to use two mics (if you have enough tracks) - one close to the guitar grill, pointing from the side toward the cone - the other one at the 2 metre distance. You can then mix these together for a nice, fat sound!
Monitor the sound that is coming through the mic(s), and move it around a little til you get the sound you want. The angle toward the grill and the distance of the mic head from the centre of the speaker cone will all affect the tone - so it is better to affect tone by your mic positioning til you have the best you can before you start eq work.
Of course, different mics have different tonal qualities. Some pro engineers will mic each speaker of a four-speaker guitar cab with a different mic and move them about/blend them together for the ultimate tone. To be honest though, these resources are out of reach for most of us...but I think it is nice to think beyond your budget and equipment and experiment as much as you can with what you have.
Oh, and there is a decent plugin called Antares Microphone Modeller that can help compensate for some of the tonal deficiencies of an inadequate mic by making it sound 'like' a better one. I use it sometimes when I want to vary the sound of my lone SM-57
Anyway, good luck. Thanks to philth for the clipping info, I've been mixing on PC for a while now and i'm used to watching level meters in software so its easy to forget Still, watch out for overzealous gain amplification using the onboard preamp gain controls because they add as much gain to the noise as they do anything else, and can add inherent noise themselves!
And no, 'the louder your mixer's gain is' before clipping, the less noise you are gonna have on your recording is a little untrue.
Technically, the gain you are adding at the mixer is amplifying the noise floor by every bit as much as it is amplifying the recording signal. So yes, by all means increase the gain pot as much as you can before clipping - but the more you have to increase it, the more noise you are going to have.
Thus, it is much better to get the signal level as strong as possible BEFORE you use the mixer preamps - ie. use a more sensitive mic that can handle a beefier sound pressure level (db volume at source) and an external preamp... than it is to boost it too much using the onboard pre's.
There are many ways to mic a guitar amp. The closer you are to the grill, the more 'direct' the sound. The further away, the more room ambience you are going to get.
You will find that close micing (touching the grill or within 2 inches) will give the most crisp sound. However, for more depth and depending on the room you may want to move away by about two metres. An interesting trick is to use two mics (if you have enough tracks) - one close to the guitar grill, pointing from the side toward the cone - the other one at the 2 metre distance. You can then mix these together for a nice, fat sound!
Monitor the sound that is coming through the mic(s), and move it around a little til you get the sound you want. The angle toward the grill and the distance of the mic head from the centre of the speaker cone will all affect the tone - so it is better to affect tone by your mic positioning til you have the best you can before you start eq work.
Of course, different mics have different tonal qualities. Some pro engineers will mic each speaker of a four-speaker guitar cab with a different mic and move them about/blend them together for the ultimate tone. To be honest though, these resources are out of reach for most of us...but I think it is nice to think beyond your budget and equipment and experiment as much as you can with what you have.
Oh, and there is a decent plugin called Antares Microphone Modeller that can help compensate for some of the tonal deficiencies of an inadequate mic by making it sound 'like' a better one. I use it sometimes when I want to vary the sound of my lone SM-57
Anyway, good luck. Thanks to philth for the clipping info, I've been mixing on PC for a while now and i'm used to watching level meters in software so its easy to forget
Still, watch out for overzealous gain amplification using the onboard preamp gain controls because they add as much gain to the noise as they do anything else, and can add inherent noise themselves!Cheers for that mate. My problem when I place the mic next to the amp (within 1 foot) is that i get much more fuzz than if its back by about 2 meters. Again i am busy this week but i'm thinking i might try lowering the amps volume and trying the dual mic setup you suggest so taht the closer mic can pick up the sound better and get the more crisp sound you are talking about. My dillemma is that as I lower the amps volume, the mic quality at close range may improve but the actual sound coming out the amp isn't as good obviously. This weekend though I'm gonna have a one day play around and possibly even get a test song recorded and post it up. Many thanks for the help once again.
Sorry, you do not have access to post...
Wanna post? Join Today!